• New to the echo.

    From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Mark Hofmann on Sun Sep 4 22:17:33 2011
    Hi Mark -- on Sep 03 2011 at 22:12, you wrote:

    Just wanted to say hello to everyone in here, as I have just picked
    up this echo from my hub. I had seen it before, but was not totally
    clear on the discussion until now.

    Greetings!! Hmm....is there something we should change in the description, perhaps?

    As some already know, my youngest son (4 years old now) has Down
    [...]
    godo at sports and has a good pitching arm. We were outside today
    playing catch.

    Excellent!! Our daughter (25) also has Down Syndrome. Not only is she doing well, she's just been awarded the George Klukas Achievement Award for personal growth in a person with Down Syndrome (via the Down Syndrome Research Foundation: www.dsrf.org). We're very proud of her!

    He has been a real blessing and a wonderful child. One thing we
    still need to get through is he needs an operation for
    Hirschsprung's Disease. It is where a section (at the end) of the
    [...]
    He has a clean bill of health (including heart tests) otherwise.
    Once we get through this operation, he should be in much better
    shape. No long term issues.

    Was wondering if anyone is familiar with any of those operations?

    They're new to me, but like many parents of kids with DS, we've had our share of surgeries and panics! Our daughter had leukemia at age 3, a few other procedures, and then a major stroke at age 16. She's now Left side hemiplegic and uses a wheelchair, but still smiling! :-)

    Looking forward to discussion with everyone.

    Nice to have you with us!

    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, CANADA [telnet: bandmaster.tzo.com] (1:153/7715)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to Dallas Hinton on Mon Sep 5 14:05:38 2011


    Greetings!! Hmm....is there something we should change in the
    description, perhaps?

    I should have looked for the description early on. I thought it was only for people that survived some type of adversity (based on the echo tag). Once I found the description, it make more sense to me.

    Excellent!! Our daughter (25) also has Down Syndrome. Not only is she
    doing
    well, she's just been awarded the George Klukas Achievement Award for personal growth in a person with Down Syndrome (via the Down Syndrome Research Foundation: www.dsrf.org). We're very proud of her!

    That is great!

    They're new to me, but like many parents of kids with DS, we've had our share of surgeries and panics! Our daughter had leukemia at age 3, a few other procedures, and then a major stroke at age 16. She's now Left side hemiplegic and uses a wheelchair, but still smiling! :-)

    Thats the important thing.. :)

    We have been working around our son's bowel issue since he was born. It is difficult to get a procedure done when there is no "clear and present danger at
    that moment", but this does need to be fixed. The risk of not doing it long term is worse.

    Still working with him to increase his vocabulary. That will keep him from getting as frustrated at times when he acts out due to people not understanding
    what he wants. He knows more sign language than I do. :)

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Mark Hofmann on Mon Sep 5 18:44:11 2011
    Hi Mark -- on Sep 05 2011 at 14:05, you wrote:

    I should have looked for the description early on. I thought it was
    only for people that survived some type of adversity (based on the
    echo tag). Once I found the description, it make more sense to me.

    Actually, that was the original intent, but like us, it's changed over the years! :-)

    We have been working around our son's bowel issue since he was born.
    It is difficult to get a procedure done when there is no "clear and
    present danger at that moment", but this does need to be fixed. The
    risk of not doing it long term is worse.

    Yes, it can be tough to get the medical types to recognize the realities of life!

    Still working with him to increase his vocabulary. That will keep
    him from getting as frustrated at times when he acts out due to
    people not understanding what he wants. He knows more sign language
    than I do. :)

    We enrolled (all of us) in a sign language group for toddlers. The theory is that all children have needs before they can speak, and using sign language (so
    called "signed English") helps prevent frustration. We still use a little - it's handy in a noisy place!


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, CANADA [telnet: bandmaster.tzo.com] (1:153/7715)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to Dallas Hinton on Tue Sep 6 11:46:22 2011


    Yes, it can be tough to get the medical types to recognize the realities
    of life!

    What is incredible to me is the amount of medical professionals that are out of
    touch concerning Down Syndrome.

    When we first found out before our son was born, based on their comments, you would think he would have been completely non-functional. That could not be farther from the truth! These people need an medical refresher course! It seems to be a battle with some to bring them up to date.

    We enrolled (all of us) in a sign language group for toddlers. The theory is
    that all children have needs before they can speak, and using sign
    language
    (so called "signed English") helps prevent frustration. We still use a little - it's handy in a noisy place!

    Not a bad idea. I have learned some of the basics from our son and his teachers. :) He has been getting better at verbalizing.

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Mark Hofmann on Tue Sep 6 22:50:37 2011
    Hi Mark -- on Sep 06 2011 at 11:46, you wrote:

    What is incredible to me is the amount of medical professionals that
    [...]
    people need an medical refresher course! It seems to be a battle
    with some to bring them up to date.

    A losing battle. When our daughter was born in 1986, the pediatrician of record
    told us to put her in a home and forget about her. I fired him that night.

    Not a bad idea. I have learned some of the basics from our son and
    his teachers. :) He has been getting better at verbalizing.

    I used to teach it to my Grade 8 "Fine Arts" class -- they loved being able to talk in (other) classes without being caught. :-)

    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, CANADA [telnet: bandmaster.tzo.com] (1:153/7715)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to All on Sat Sep 3 22:12:21 2011

    Just wanted to say hello to everyone in here, as I have just picked up this echo from my hub. I had seen it before, but was not totally clear on the discussion until now.

    As some already know, my youngest son (4 years old now) has Down Syndrome. He is only mildly effected from it, causing some delays. It took him alittle longer to walk (now he runs), drink from a cup, etc. He is doing all those things now, but his speech is still developing. He knows how to say many words
    and completely understands just about everything you say to him. He is also very godo at sports and has a good pitching arm. We were outside today playing
    catch.

    He has been a real blessing and a wonderful child. One thing we still need to get through is he needs an operation for Hirschsprung's Disease. It is where a
    section (at the end) of the bowel lacks nerve cells and causes bad constipation. He is due for the operation later this year. Otherwise, he is completely healthy. He did have an operation when he was first born (duodenal atesia) which is where the connection between the stomach and small instestine is blocked.

    He has a clean bill of health (including heart tests) otherwise. Once we get through this operation, he should be in much better shape. No long term issues.

    Was wondering if anyone is familiar with any of those operations?

    Looking forward to discussion with everyone.

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Mark Hofmann on Fri Sep 9 11:23:35 2011
    Hi & welcome, Mark! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

    I have just picked up this echo from my hub. I
    had seen it before, but was not totally clear on
    the discussion until now.


    Within the last few months we had a thread about what makes this echo
    tick... [chuckle]. It's not easy to tell sometimes until one gets to know more
    about the sort of people who hang out here, but I'll add an example of the sort
    of material I think you can probably relate to. A few days after Nora's birth,
    when the pediatrician's diagnosis of DS had just been confirmed, the gynecology
    resident accosted me outside our room to ask... in essence... why I hadn't been
    weeping & wailing & gnashing my teeth. I told him about Judy, a former student
    of mine, and added that I'd be quite content to have a daughter like her. :-))



    As some already know, my youngest son (4 years old now)
    has Down Syndrome. He is only mildly effected from it,
    causing some delays. It took him alittle longer to walk
    (now he runs), drink from a cup, etc.


    Uh-huh. IIRC, kids with Down's syndrome walk independently at 3 yrs.
    of age on average... just as Nora did. One of the common characteristics of DS
    is that various muscle groups tend to be stronger than others. Babies who open
    their fists at an earlier age than usual, for example, may have difficulty with
    tasks which require bending the elbows or the knees. Eventually the muscles do
    sort out among themselves which must pull how hard in order to balance the pull
    from the opposite direction, but they learn on their own unique timetable. You
    probably know this already. I'm filling in a bit for those who may not. While
    I'm at it, BTW, the apostrophe + s after "Down" is optional in Canada. I'm not
    correcting anyone's spelling, just using the spelling I personally prefer. ;-)



    He is doing all those things now, but his speech is still
    developing.


    IOW he's a typical boy in many ways although he may have reached some
    milestones later than others of his age generally do. One of the hot topics in
    the EdBiz is that at K/1 level a lot of boys would rather play catch with Daddy
    than be chained to a desk under the supervision of a female teacher who expects
    them to learn to read. Boys tend to achieve reading readiness later than girls
    because their focus at this age is on developing gross motor skills. With Nora
    we've found that a growth spurt in one area is accompanied by a plateau in some
    other area more often than not. While she was learning to walk she didn't make
    a lot of progress WRT her vocabulary... but then I learn in a similar way. :-)



    He knows how to say many words and completely understands
    just about everything you say to him.


    I figure he probably understands more than some other adults realize.
    When Nora was around the same age I realized I had to simplify my delivery if I
    expected other kids (of supposedly normal or higher intelligence) to understand
    what I was attempting to say. I agree that both speech therapy & sign language
    may be very helpful for kids who can't get their tongues around the words. :-)



    He is also very godo at sports and has a good pitching arm.


    There's one example of how Nora changed my life for the better. When
    I was growing up I was always the last to be assigned to a team in PE because I
    was such a klutz. I remember how my classmates groaned aloud when I missed the
    target (yet again!!) and other stuff I won't bore you with. I managed to avoid
    team sports as an adult until the Universal Intelligence, or whatever you would
    prefer to call it, asked me if I was willing to parent a kid with DS & I rashly
    agreed. I didn't know at the time that the job involved teaching PE. But Nora
    doesn't seem to mind so much if I can't hit the broadside of a barn... and as a
    result of her interest in sports I've become a lot more interested myself. :-)



    He has been a real blessing and a wonderful child.


    Yes. A mother of two once told me she often wished her "typical" son
    was more like the one with DS, and a mother of four told me the one with DS was
    the light of her life. I don't have other kids of my own to compare with, just
    a whole bunch of students of various ages. But otherwise I can relate.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Mark Hofmann on Fri Sep 9 11:26:22 2011
    Hi again, Mark! This is a continuation of my previous message to you:

    Looking forward to discussion with everyone.


    As an involved parent you've demonstrated to me that we're all on the
    same wave length. I'm looking forward to further discussion with you too. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to Dallas Hinton on Tue Sep 13 21:39:09 2011


    A losing battle. When our daughter was born in 1986, the pediatrician of record told us to put her in a home and forget about her. I fired him
    that night.

    For people that are supposed to be well educated, they are certainly out of touch in those areas.

    Our first experience was before our son was even born. The doctor said that based on the echo, he told us he had a severe heart defect, and only a 5% of being functional.

    He was wrong on all counts. He was born with no heart defects at all and is very functional! Other than bowel related issues (which can be fixed with an operation), he is like any other child. His speach is delayed, but he picks up
    more and more all the time.

    The medical professionals need to get up to date on facts and stop living in their own world..

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to Ardith Hinton on Tue Sep 13 21:56:14 2011


    Hi & welcome, Mark! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

    Thanks!! Happy to be here..

    days after Nora's birth, when the pediatrician's diagnosis of DS had just been confirmed, the gynecology resident accosted me outside our room to ask... in essence... why I hadn't been weeping & wailing & gnashing my teeth. I told him about Judy, a former student of mine, and added that
    I'd
    be quite content to have a daughter like her. :-))

    We had a similar situation. After they first told us that our son had DS, they
    sent in a "counsler" to talk to us and make sure we were "ok". I couldn't believe they did such a thing and sent the person out of the room. They treat it like some horrible disease - which is far from the truth. We are happy with
    whatever we were given.

    Uh-huh. IIRC, kids with Down's syndrome walk independently at
    3
    yrs. of age on average... just as Nora did. One of the common characteristics of DS is that various muscle groups tend to be stronger than

    Our son used to "skoot" on his butt very fast on the floor. He never crawled. He went from skooting to walking and then to running. :)
    There is one very unique thing with our son. I have heard most children with DS have a large straight line on the palm of their hands.

    Our son has a straight line on one of his hands, but not the other. I'm not sure why or what that could mean, if anything.

    IOW he's a typical boy in many ways although he may have
    reached
    some milestones later than others of his age generally do. One of the

    Exactly. It isn't that they "can't" do something. It can be delayed and can take longer to reach the same milestones.

    I figure he probably understands more than some other adults realize. When Nora was around the same age I realized I had to simplify
    my
    delivery if I expected other kids (of supposedly normal or higher intelligence) to understand what I was attempting to say. I agree that both
    speech therapy & sign language may be very helpful for kids who can't get their tongues around the words. :-)

    He understand most everything. His big problem is trying to express himself in
    words. He is getting it though, just taking a bit.

    Yes. A mother of two once told me she often wished her
    "typical"
    son was more like the one with DS, and a mother of four told me the one with
    DS was the light of her life. I don't have other kids of my own to
    compare
    with, just a whole bunch of students of various ages. But otherwise I
    can
    relate.... :-)

    We have a total of 6 kids. Only one between the two of us (being our son). Everyone is unique and special in their own way..

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Mark Hofmann on Wed Sep 14 01:01:36 2011
    Hi Mark -- on Sep 13 2011 at 21:39, you wrote:

    The medical professionals need to get up to date on facts and stop
    living in their own world..

    it's amazing how badly wrong they can be sometimes -- but perhaps it's proof of
    the wonders of the mind?


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, CANADA [telnet: bandmaster.tzo.com] (1:153/7715)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to Dallas Hinton on Thu Sep 22 19:31:03 2011


    it's amazing how badly wrong they can be sometimes -- but perhaps it's proof
    of the wonders of the mind?

    Very true.

    One of the days this week when I dropped my son off at school/daycare, I got to
    see him take the "Apple" with his name on it and put it on the tree. I was VERY impressed. 4 years old, he was able to find his apple (the one with his name on it), and put it on the tree with the other kids that were present.

    Very cool! He impresses me more and more each day!

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Mark Hofmann on Fri Sep 23 20:33:50 2011
    Hi Mark -- on Sep 22 2011 at 19:31, you wrote:

    One of the days this week when I dropped my son off at
    school/daycare, I got to see him take the "Apple" with his name on
    it and put it on the tree. I was VERY impressed. 4 years old, he
    was able to find his apple (the one with his name on it), and put it
    on the tree with the other kids that were present.

    That's wonderful -- well done!!

    Very cool! He impresses me more and more each day!

    :-)




    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, CANADA [telnet: bandmaster.tzo.com] (1:153/7715)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Mark Hofmann on Mon Sep 26 16:36:07 2011
    Hi, Mark! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    when the pediatrician's diagnosis of DS had just been
    confirmed, the gynecology resident accosted me outside
    our room to ask... in essence... why I hadn't been
    weeping & wailing & gnashing my teeth. I told him
    about Judy, a former student of mine, and added that
    I'd be quite content to have a daughter like her.

    We had a similar situation. After they first told us
    that our son had DS, they sent in a "counsler" to talk
    to us and make sure we were "ok". I couldn't believe
    they did such a thing and sent the person out of the room.


    When Nora & I returned home, after her birth, a public health nurse visited us once a week... ostensibly to weigh the baby. She seemed to regard inspecting me & my housekeeping as her chief responsibility, however. On one occasion, for example, she went to the kitchen to wash her hands although the bathroom was closer. Then another nurse took her place. This nurse was very different. She said I had a wonderful rapport with Nora, i.e. the first nice thing anybody had said about my parenting. I reckon she must have given me a passing grade because we heard nothing more for the next fifteen years. :-))



    They treat it like some horrible disease -
    which is far from the truth.


    Yes, and they can easily do more harm than good by projecting their own fears onto others. I'm reminded of the dietician who came to see us when Nora was in rehab. Nora's weight had been stable before her stroke, but as a result of the stroke she wasn't getting enough exercise & was gaining weight. This woman, who clearly had a weight problem herself, kept trying to reassure Nora that it was nothing to be ashamed of. Nora wasn't ashamed of it at all, therefore we didn't want the dietician putting ideas into her head... (sigh).

    The gynecology resident was different too. He's the sort of person who inspires me to believe things are slowly changing for the better. He was present at Nora's birth... he was aware of the gloomy prognostications in the medical textbooks... yet he said to himself, "Something doesn't add up here." He approached me in the spirit of a person seeking more data because a lot of what he's been told doesn't match his observations. I immediately recognized him as a kindred spirit & the teacher in me seized the teachable moment. :-)



    We are happy with whatever we were given.


    ... as are the vast majority of other people who find themselves in similar circumstances, apparently, among North Americans at least:

    "Parents, Siblings, and People With Down Syndrome
    Report Positive Experiences"

    http://sacbee.com/2011/09/21




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From James Bradley@1:342/77 to Mark Hofmann on Wed Sep 21 17:11:00 2011
    Mark Hofmann to All on 09-03-11 22:12 re: New to the echo.

    Just wanted to say hello to everyone in here, as I have
    just picked up this echo from my hub. I had seen it
    before, but was not totally clear on the discussion until
    now.

    <Waving vigorously *;->

    As some already know, my youngest son (4 years old now) has Down
    Syndrome. He is only mildly effected from it, causing some delays.
    It took him alittle longer to walk (now he runs), drink
    from a cup, etc. He is doing all those things now, but his
    speech is still developing. He knows how to say many words
    and completely understands just about everything you say to
    him. He is also very godo at sports and has a good
    pitching arm. We were outside today playing catch.

    It sounds like you have a firm grasp on the blessings.

    He has been a real blessing and a wonderful child. One thing we still need to get through is he needs an operation for Hirschsprung's
    Disease. It is where a section (at the end) of the bowel
    lacks nerve cells and causes bad constipation. He is due
    for the operation later this year. Otherwise, he is
    completely healthy. He did have an operation when he was
    first born (duodenal atesia) which is where the connection
    between the stomach and small instestine is blocked.

    Thank you for giving us the thumbnail of these conditions. For those new to this echo, maybe it's time I reciprocate.

    My oncology surgeon nicked a nerve that somehow affects my sciatic nerve Twenty-years ago. Sitting and walking is a challenge. I was diagnosed with a fibroid neuroma just a few years ago, (FINALLY) but we are not sure if it is on a muscle nerve that impinges on my sciatic. Physical maladies, are only the *beginning* of my issues.

    He has a clean bill of health (including heart tests)
    otherwise. Once we get through this operation, he should
    be in much better shape. No long term issues.

    Was wondering if anyone is familiar with any of those operations?

    We are more so now. <G>

    Looking forward to discussion with everyone.

    Likewise... Often assistance can come from unexpected sources and in obtuse directions.


    ... James
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.49

    --- Maximus 3.01
    * Origin: -=-= Calgary Organization CDN (403) 242-3221 (1:342/77)
  • From James Bradley@1:342/77 to Mark Hofmann on Tue Sep 27 18:48:02 2011
    Mark Hofmann to Dallas Hinton on 09-05-11 14:05 re: Re: New to the echo.

    Greetings!! Hmm....is there something we should change in the description, perhaps?

    I should have looked for the description early on. I
    thought it was only for people that survived some type of
    adversity (based on the echo tag). Once I found the
    description, it make more sense to me.

    I went through the same issues. I am lazy when researching things on fido and other areas in life. <shy-G>
    ...

    Still working with him to increase his vocabulary. That
    will keep him from getting as frustrated at times when he
    acts out due to people not understanding what he wants. He
    knows more sign language than I do. :)

    Well, see??? *Your* education has *begun*. <sly-G>

    I learned as a pre-teen to not sell a DS person short. Many do not have that exposure to what they can offer. I recently heard an actress interviewed about her DS sister. When her coat was stolen from school, and everyone was trying to rile up her outrage about the act, her retort was "But someone was cold, and needed the jacket."


    ... James
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.49

    --- Maximus 3.01
    * Origin: -=-= Calgary Organization CDN (403) 242-3221 (1:342/77)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to Ardith Hinton on Sat Oct 1 21:16:51 2011


    When Nora & I returned home, after her birth, a public health nurse
    visited us once a week... ostensibly to weigh the baby. She seemed to regard
    inspecting me & my housekeeping as her chief responsibility, however. On one
    occasion, for example, she went to the kitchen to wash her hands although the
    bathroom was closer. Then another nurse took her place. This nurse was very
    different. She said I had a wonderful rapport with Nora, i.e. the first nice
    thing anybody had said about my parenting. I reckon she must have given
    me a
    passing grade because we heard nothing more for the next fifteen years. :-))

    Our son was born slightly over one month premature. This was due to the extra fluid that was accumulating due to him not being able to injest the amniotic fluid. This is how they believe he had a condition called "duodenal atresia" where a small section between the stomach and small intestine is closed/blocked.

    He had an operation a day after birth to correct that problem.

    He spend 30 days in the NICU after birth. We had to fight to get him to come home - finally just going in and taking him. They were concerned about his breathing / O2 level at the time. We had to take all this equipment home with us for the first week, but he ended up being fine.

    He is doing just wonderful. Once we get through this Hirshprungs operation, he
    will be in great shape. We meet with the surgeon on October 25th. Not sure when the operation will be yet. We are not looking forward to it, but it just needs to be done. The risk level is low and the reward is great for him.

    We will be very happy when we are past that hurdle..

    - Mark


    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to James Bradley on Sat Oct 1 21:28:35 2011


    I learned as a pre-teen to not sell a DS person short. Many do not have that
    exposure to what they can offer. I recently heard an actress interviewed about
    her DS sister. When her coat was stolen from school, and everyone was trying to
    rile up her outrage about the act, her retort was "But someone was cold, and
    needed the jacket."

    I really never had any direct exposure to anyone with DS until our son. I'm a very positive person in general, so I was sure he would exceed everyone's expectations. What I had thought was odd was how negative the healthcare professionals were concerning the situation. Not all of them are like that, but our initial confrontation with them was not a good one.

    I have always enjoyed being able to prove people wrong and exceed expectations - and my son is exactly the same.. :)

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Mark Hofmann on Wed Oct 12 23:26:31 2011
    Hi again, Mark! This is a continuation of my previous reply to you:

    Our son used to "skoot" on his butt very fast on
    the floor.


    ... using his arms to push himself around?



    He never crawled. He went from skooting to walking
    and then to running. :)


    Nora went from creeping... i.e. pushing herself around with extended arms while lying on her tummy... to standing & walking with the aid of a solid object such as the coffee table. Kids with DS who can bend their knees & keep them together may have accomplished a phenomenal task in developing the muscle strength necessary to counteract the opposing muscles. Once they've done that ... why waste time crawling when you can walk?? And they're off... [chuckle].



    There is one very unique thing with our son.
    I have heard most children with DS have a large
    straight line on the palm of their hands.


    The so-called "simian crease"? IMHO this is a term originating from an era in which people with DS were generally regarded as less than human. My understanding is that a syndrome is a cluster of features, any or all of which may be found in the population at large. Some people with DS have the "simian crease"... Nora doesn't. I'm not prepared to say how many others exhibit this feature because I have little opportunity to study their palms in detail. :-)



    Our son has a straight line on one of his hands,
    but not the other. I'm not sure why or what that
    could mean, if anything.


    It might mean something to a palmist... and from that standpoint I'd be interested in knowing which is which. Otherwise I wouldn't attach a lot of importance to it because other people's bodies aren't symmetrical either. :-)



    He understand most everything. His big problem is
    trying to express himself in words. He is getting
    it though, just taking a bit.


    If he has difficulty getting his tongue around the words because his tongue doesn't quite fit his mouth, that's not unusual for kids with DS. As I remarked about one of Nora's ward mates who couldn't speak because she'd had a stroke... she understands what we're saying, but she can't talk. I knew I was on the right track when she grinned from ear to ear & nodded enthusiastically.

    Even among "typical" children & adults, generating speech requires a more complex skill set than understanding speech. Kids who are ready to learn how to express themselves in words may be able to use gestures & sign language to cover the transitional period during which they still have difficulty using oral speech. Nora went to a preschool group in which both were used together. The group included kids who had developmental delays for any number of reasons ... not just kids with DS... and contrary to some people's fears, we found she didn't become overly dependent on sign language. While it's a useful skill to have in one's repertoire, the majority of others don't understand it. The net result, in Nora's case, was that it faded as her oral speech improved.... :-)



    We have a total of 6 kids. Only one between the two
    of us (being our son). Everyone is unique and special
    in their own way..


    Exactly. Years ago... when the state of the art was that there were three million possible combinations of genes... a distraught mother approached me to ask why her son was so different from her daughters. I told her I found it rather amazing that her daughters were so alike. Nowadays three million is considered a gross underestimate, but I think the same principle applies. ;-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Richard Webb@1:116/901 to Ardith Hinton on Thu Oct 13 13:23:47 2011
    HEllo ARdith, and Mark

    I've stayed out of this for the most part, as I'm not as
    familiar as are you folks who've walked the walk with this.
    I know blindness, and am familiar with helping adults adjust to its onset later
    on in life. IT even took me awhile to
    wrap my head around some of that, because I was born this
    way, it's the only world I've known <grin>.
    A couple of ARdith's comments prompted this however.
    On Wed 2011-Oct-12 23:26, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Mark Hofmann:

    <snippage>
    Even among "typical" children & adults, generating speech requires a more complex skill set than understanding speech. Kids
    who are ready to learn how to express themselves in words may be
    able to use gestures & sign language to cover the transitional
    period during which they still have difficulty using oral speech.
    Nora went to a preschool group in which both were used together. The
    group included kids who had developmental delays for any number of
    reasons ... not just kids with DS... and contrary to some people's
    fears, we found she didn't become overly dependent on sign language.
    While it's a useful skill to have in one's repertoire, the majority
    of others don't understand it. The net result, in Nora's case, was
    that it faded as her oral speech improved.... :-)

    This is always good, but there are many who've bothered to
    learn sign. My lady's eldest daughter learned sign, as she
    has deafness in one ear, and a Sunday school program she
    attended in Florida was very inclusive and got their deaf
    members involved in all their church programs. HEnce, when
    she was a clerk at a fast food establishment years later the deaf folks who liked to gather for coffee gravitated toward
    the line she was working at the counter, as they didn't have to write out their
    orders on a slip of paper, but could
    converse with her naturally using sign.

    The point I always emphasize with folks adjusting to
    blindness later on in life, or parents of blind children is
    this:

    Even if you can't do things in the "normal" way the
    important thing is that you get them done, and can live a
    full life. This is why you'll never hear many of us blind
    folks who are considered a little more radical ever use the
    word "substitute" to describe how we do things differently.
    Even if that's as simple as using our dry measuring cups to
    measure liquids, or a different tool to measure material for construction, etc.
    You'll always hear or read us stressing
    the term "alternative" because utilization of "substitute"
    connotes inferiority, not quite as good as. Whereas, using
    "alternative" to describe these different methods indicates
    that it works just as well.

    Examples abound of the stroke victim who might not be able
    to communicate effectively using oral methods, but who can
    use international MOrse code, for example, or ARdith's
    example of ds children learning sign.

    This is the main reason that when we teach folks adjusting
    to blindness these techniques we teach them with the student under sleepshades,
    so that he/she learns them as a totally
    blind person, and understands at the gut level that the
    residual vision remaining is not the reason they are
    successful using them.

    Just $0.02 worth from the peanut gallery with my morning
    coffee.

    Regards,
    Richard
    ---
    * Origin: (1:116/901)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Richard Webb on Sat Oct 15 23:56:04 2011
    Hi, Richard! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    I know blindness, and am familiar with helping adults
    adjust to its onset later on in life. IT even took me
    awhile to wrap my head around some of that, because I
    was born this way, it's the only world I've known <grin>.


    But eventually you *did* manage to get your head around it... and you realized the learning curve might be steep for them as well.

    Our young friend & her mother were thrilled to have an opportunity to work on echolocation recently with a blind woman from out of town. They'd just attended a workshop where this woman was one of the presenters... then she took them out to the street for a private lesson. When one of Nora's classmates was in a similar situation I'd often see him on the street with a sighted classroom aide. I think our friend & her mother learned more in just one afternoon. :-)



    contrary to some people's fears, we found she didn't
    become overly dependent on sign language. While it's
    a useful skill to have in one's repertoire, the majority
    of others don't understand it. The net result, in Nora's
    case, was that it faded as her oral speech improved.... :-)

    This is always good, but there are many who've bothered
    to learn sign.


    Yes, there are. As teachers Dallas & I worked with students who were learning Signed English... going into more detail here because you seem to have some knowledge of the subject matter. Basically, Signed English is a word-for- word translation of everyday English. That's the variety of sign language most hearing people are familiar with. Kids in school love it because they can talk to friends on the other side of the room without making a noise. Teachers such as Dallas & me turn a blind eye... i.e. assuming you will pardon the expression ... because they recognize it's a project the kids are doing in another class & one has to strike while the iron is hot. Within a week or so, we'll be back to confiscating notes & reading them aloud or chuckling over the fact that we have replied to what somebody in the back row whispered to a friend across the aisle & carried on without missing a beat. In the room down the hall we get paid for knowing who forgot a C#, but very few kids understand the implications.... ;-)

    The three of us also took an evening course in American Sign Language during Nora's hospital stay after her stroke. The instructor was a deaf person ... unlike other instructors we've had. I noted with interest that the grammar & word order are different, and that it's not kosher to mirror what you see the instructor doing. You're supposed to copy the hand signals in reverse.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Richard Webb@1:116/901 to Ardith Hinton on Sun Oct 16 16:41:06 2011
    HEllo Ardith,

    On Sat 2011-Oct-15 23:56, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:

    I know blindness, and am familiar with helping adults
    adjust to its onset later on in life. IT even took me
    awhile to wrap my head around some of that, because I
    was born this way, it's the only world I've known <grin>.


    But eventually you *did* manage to get your head around
    it... and you realized the learning curve might be steep for them as
    well.

    INdeed it is, the physical skills can be taught, in fact
    easier than one might think, but it's the mental that takes
    them awhile to get.

    Our young friend & her mother were thrilled to have an opportunity to work on echolocation recently with a blind woman from
    out of town. They'd just attended a workshop where this woman was
    one of the presenters... then she took them out to the street for a
    private lesson. When one of Nora's classmates was in a similar
    situation I'd often see him on the street with a sighted classroom
    aide. I think our friend & her mother learned more in just one
    afternoon. :-)

    Indeed, that can work, especially when coupled with a good
    flexible cane to discern what's in front of one that
    echolocation won't pick up, such as that child's tricycle,
    or the place where the tree roots have buckled the sidewalk, or other hazards/obstacles.

    sOme such as my first wife can feel the difference in how
    air currents move around objects such as trees, etc. as
    well. I think they call it "facial vision" but may be wrong on the term.

    <snip>

    Yes, there are. As teachers Dallas & I worked with
    students who were learning Signed English... going into more detail
    here because you seem to have some knowledge of the subject matter. Basically, Signed English is a word-for- word translation of
    everyday English. That's the variety of sign language most hearing
    people are familiar with. Kids in school love it because they can
    talk to friends on the other side of the room without making a
    noise. Teachers such as Dallas & me turn a blind eye... i.e.
    assuming you will pardon the expression ... because they recognize
    it's a project the kids are doing in another class & one has to
    strike while the iron is hot. Within a week or so, we'll be back to confiscating notes & reading them aloud or chuckling over the fact
    that we have replied to what somebody in the back row whispered to a
    friend across the aisle & carried on without missing a beat. In the
    room down the hall we get paid for knowing who forgot a C#, but very
    few kids understand the implications.... ;-)

    YEp, that's always one of the things that excites the
    youngsters about learning it, which I never did, for obvious reasons. MOrse code sort of holds the same attraction for
    youngsters when they figure out that writing out that note
    to be passed as dots and "dashes" can be helpful as a crude
    form of encryption <grin>.

    The three of us also took an evening course in American
    Sign Language during Nora's hospital stay after her stroke. The
    instructor was a deaf person ... unlike other instructors we've had.
    I noted with interest that the grammar & word order are different,
    and that it's not kosher to mirror what you see the instructor
    doing. You're supposed to copy the hand signals in reverse.... :-)

    INteresting, never knew that one. The person with
    substantial hearing loss I"ve interacted with the most was
    both deaf and blind, so sign didn't help, and I never
    learned the finger talk thing. HOWever, she had a little
    machine called a teletouch, a typewriter keyboard coupled to a single braille cell which was essentially pins that
    appeared to represent the appropriate braille symbols, she'd hold a hand over the single cell and you could type away at
    her and she could actually talk back, as she could speak,
    thanks to going deaf later on in life.

    She used to like me to interpret for her during meetings and convention sessions as I made a diligent effort to keep her
    up on what was going on, who said what, etc.

    Once I figured out she knew braille shorthand it got even
    easier <grin>.


    Regards,
    Richard
    ---
    * Origin: (1:116/901)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Richard Webb on Wed Oct 26 23:56:05 2011
    Hi again, Richard! This is a continuation of my previous message to you:

    My lady's eldest daughter learned sign, as she has
    deafness in one ear, and a Sunday school program she
    attended in Florida was very inclusive and got their
    deaf members involved in all their church programs.


    Good for them! Over the years I have noticed that some denominations
    seem more receptive to folks with disabilities than others. When I was growing
    up, there were two families with offspring in wheelchairs who attended the same
    church my family did. For as long as I remember there has been a ramp into the
    church... and when renovations were made to the church hall & office area, i.e.
    some time before Nora was born, an elevator was added. At the other end of the
    continuum, there was a woman in this echo years ago who said the members of her
    church had shunned her family because one of the kids had a learning disability
    & they interpreted it to mean the family weren't good Christians... (sigh).



    HEnce, when she was a clerk at a fast food establishment
    years later the deaf folks who liked to gather for coffee
    gravitated toward the line she was working at the counter,
    as they didn't have to write out their orders on a slip of
    paper, but could converse with her naturally using sign.


    They may even have been attracted to this place because they knew she
    understood their language. We know which coffee shops in our neighbourhood are
    receptive to folks with disabilities & we're glad to support them. On numerous
    occasions these establishments have attracted groups of eight or more customers
    who would otherwise be unable to get together... a win-win situation IMHO.

    While I'm not fluent in sign language, I know a lot of people who use
    it for various reasons. It's helpful with kids who have difficulty enunciating
    certain sounds... e.g. the consonant blends in words like "please", "thankyou",
    and "hungry"... and we still use it in certain social situations to indicate to
    one another without interrupting the flow of conversation that we need to go to
    the washroom. I can also relate to how this person's customers must have felt.
    When Nora was younger & still using the stroller, I would often stop to let her
    observe construction crews etc. One day, as the two of us approached the glass
    door at the entrance to the community centre, we saw a woman washing the glass.
    She started to make a move toward opening the door for us... but I indicated to
    her in my best Sesame St. sign language that Nora wanted to watch, knowing Nora
    couldn't see what I was doing from behind. The woman grinned from ear to ear &
    cheerfully went on with her job. Only then did I realize she was deaf.... :-)



    Even if you can't do things in the "normal" way the
    important thing is that you get them done, and can
    live a full life.


    Absolutely... you do what works! In our bathroom we have a key chain
    with a stuffed animal suspended from a toggle switch. Before that... when Nora
    was too short to reach the light switch... we attached a bit of dowelling to it
    as a less expensive alternative to the commercial product we'd seen in the home
    of a friend whose husband was quadriplegic. Although Nora's needs have changed
    we're still using the basic concept of modifying the switch so she can turn the
    light on & off by herself. If other people think we're weird, chances are they
    already realized that before visiting our home or before we invited them. :-))



    Even if that's as simple as using our dry measuring
    cups to measure liquids


    I hadn't thought of using dry measuring cups that way, but I think it
    might work well for Nora too. She often finds it difficult to read the numbers
    on the graduated cups associated with liquids. Thanks for the suggestion. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Richard Webb@1:116/901 to Ardith Hinton on Thu Oct 27 16:41:11 2011
    HEllo Ardith,

    On Wed 2011-Oct-26 23:56, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:

    Good for them! Over the years I have noticed that some denominations seem more receptive to folks with disabilities than
    others. When I was growing up, there were two families with
    offspring in wheelchairs who attended the same church my family did.
    For as long as I remember there has been a ramp into the church...
    and when renovations were made to the church hall & office area,
    i.e. some time before Nora was born, an elevator was added. At the
    other end of the continuum, there was a woman in this echo years ago
    who said the members of her church had shunned her family because
    one of the kids had a learning disability & they interpreted it to
    mean the family weren't good Christians... (sigh).

    Have noted that too over the years. The church where I grew up was late getting with the program, but they finally
    installed a ramp and an elevator to get one into the
    addition which lead to the fellowship hall and the
    auditorium. IT meant that people who were wheelchair bound
    and wished to attend services entered the sanctuary from the front, but they could get in. Also one of those
    improvements was a small elevator.

    LIke you I patronize places that are wheelchair friendly,
    especially for Kathy. Just having a ramp isn't enough imho. THe question is whether the ramp and other facilities are
    easy to use for her. Example, a Chinese restaurant we
    really liked when we first got up here from NEw ORleans was
    a real pain, the ramp was steep, adn the parking lot on a
    pretty good slope, and the door narrow, which meant I had to pull her up the ramp and back her over the threshold as her
    small front wheels wouldn't clear it. THen when leaving you had to really hold
    onto her or she'd take quite a thrill
    ride.

    When they built a newer larger facility I still found that
    though access to the building was easier for Kathy in a
    chair the carpeting they use inside is very deep pile, hard
    to push her, and the way they've done the buffet line is
    difficult to maneuver Kathy in the chair. We still like the place, but I'll only conscent to patronizing the place when
    Kathy feels strong enough to navigate the buffet line with
    her walker. I'll take my palte to the table, come back and
    get hers, but she still must navigate the line with a walker or it's too big a pain and I'll vote to spend more money
    elsewhere.

    <snipped good story on NOra watching folks work etc.>

    Even if you can't do things in the "normal" way the
    important thing is that you get them done, and can
    live a full life.

    Absolutely... you do what works! In our bathroom we have
    a key chain with a stuffed animal suspended from a toggle switch.
    Before that... when Nora was too short to reach the light switch...
    we attached a bit of dowelling to it as a less expensive alternative
    to the commercial product we'd seen in the home of a friend whose
    husband was quadriplegic. Although Nora's needs have changed we're
    still using the basic concept of modifying the switch so she can
    turn the light on & off by herself. If other people think we're
    weird, chances are they already realized that before visiting our
    home or before we invited them. :-))

    IF they have a problem with that then they don't need to
    visit you anyway <g>.


    Even if that's as simple as using our dry measuring
    cups to measure liquids

    I hadn't thought of using dry measuring cups that way, but
    I think it might work well for Nora too. She often finds it
    difficult to read the numbers on the graduated cups associated with liquids. Thanks for the suggestion. :-)

    Glad I could be of help, I'd never thought about that.
    Another thing that might help you or her is to get a set of
    metal measuring spoons, then you can bend the handles to act more like ladles.
    The metal ones are hard to find these
    days though.

    Regards,
    Richard
    ---
    * Origin: (1:116/901)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to Ardith Hinton on Thu Oct 20 15:51:37 2011


    ... using his arms to push himself around?

    Actually, he would use sit in an open indian style and use his legs to skoot. It was a combination of a hop and skoot using legs (sideways on the ground) and
    hopping on his butt.

    Similar to your daughter, he went from that to walking and now running. :)

    I had read that the crease tends to be a straight line on kids with DS, but that isn't always the case. There are cases of people without DS that have the
    same straight line crease, but they are rare.

    If he has difficulty getting his tongue around the words
    because
    his tongue doesn't quite fit his mouth, that's not unusual for kids with DS.

    Getting the proper movement in the tounge seems to be the trick with our son. When I work on words with him, I say them slow and in sections. Making a sound
    and then turning it into a word. Like "TTTTTTTTTTTTTRRRRRRRRR uck".

    Once he masters a word, he likes saying it over and over. He will say truck and bus all the time when he sees one while we are driving around.

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to Richard Webb on Fri Oct 28 20:51:58 2011


    connotes inferiority, not quite as good as. Whereas, using
    "alternative" to describe these different methods indicates
    that it works just as well.

    Totally understood.

    For instance, we all learn things in life at different rates. That is no different with regards to my son than anyone else.

    It isn't that he can't do something, it just might be on a different timeline. We are all unique in our own way. That is what makes the world go around..

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Richard Webb on Wed Nov 2 23:46:43 2011
    Hi yet again, Richard! This is the last installment in the current series:

    You'll always hear or read us stressing the term
    "alternative" because utilization of "substitute"
    connotes inferiority, not quite as good as.


    Makes sense to me. I did the same without thinking about it.... :-)



    when we teach folks adjusting to blindness these
    techniques we teach them with the student under
    sleepshades, so that he/she learns them as a totally
    blind person, and understands at the gut level that
    the residual vision remaining is not the reason they
    are successful using them.


    Yes... sighted folk often shut their eyes when they are concentrating
    on input from other sources, which your students must also do. And they may be
    pleasantly surprised at how much they can hear after a bit of instruction. Our
    young friend & her mother were so thrilled when they noticed their voices would
    sound different if they held a cushion close to their mouths that they couldn't
    resist showing us what they'd learned. To us as musicians it may seem obvious.
    But we weren't born knowing these things... we just paid our dues earlier. ;-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Richard Webb@1:116/901 to Ardith Hinton on Thu Nov 3 14:45:05 2011
    HEllo Ardith,

    On Wed 2011-Nov-02 23:46, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:

    You'll always hear or read us stressing the term
    "alternative" because utilization of "substitute"
    connotes inferiority, not quite as good as.

    Makes sense to me. I did the same without thinking about
    it.... :-)

    YEp, a lot of what we perceive is through the language we
    use to describe it <g>.


    when we teach folks adjusting to blindness these
    techniques we teach them with the student under
    sleepshades, so that he/she learns them as a totally
    blind person, and understands at the gut level that
    the residual vision remaining is not the reason they
    are successful using them.

    Yes... sighted folk often shut their eyes when they are concentrating on input from other sources, which your students must
    also do. And they may be pleasantly surprised at how much they can
    hear after a bit of instruction. Our young friend & her mother were
    so thrilled when they noticed their voices would sound different if
    they held a cushion close to their mouths that they couldn't resist
    showing us what they'd learned. To us as musicians it may seem
    obvious. But we weren't born knowing these things... we just paid
    our dues earlier. ;-)

    Indeed, musicians do have an advantage there <g>. YOu know
    it's funny, but I've told more than one person that if the
    miraculous were to occur tomorrow and I'd find myself with
    full 20/20 vision I probably would be so confused and
    disoriented I couldn't cope for quite a time, as my brain
    wouldn't know what to do with the input it was now
    receiving. I'd either have to learn to ignore it and go on
    doing many things as I was accustomed to, or just go crazy
    until I learned to adapt, very slowly. Adding sensory input could potentially be as debilitating as taking it away.


    Regards,
    Richard
    ---
    * Origin: (1:116/901)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Mark Hofmann on Mon Nov 14 21:46:14 2011
    Hi, Mark! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    Actually, he would use sit in an open indian style and
    use his legs to skoot. It was a combination of a hop and
    skoot using legs (sideways on the ground) and hopping on
    his butt.


    Nora still enjoys sitting cross-legged... in her own inimitable way,
    of course! Years ago it drove her physios crazy because they were afraid she'd
    dislocate her hip. She hasn't yet. I'm also told it is a very stable position
    which helps enable kids to avoid toppling over & maintain good posture.... :-)



    I had read that the crease tends to be a straight line on
    kids with DS, but that isn't always the case. There are
    cases of people without DS that have the same straight line
    crease, but they are rare.


    Yes, there's an example of a characteristic associated with DS which
    also occurs... perhaps less often... among the general population. Another has
    to do with the "epicanthic fold" at the corner of the eye adjacent to the nose.
    For Orientals this is normal... for Caucasians it's normal in babies & in about
    10% of other folks who do not have DS. Before chromosome tests were available,
    Dr. Langdon Down identified numerous characteristics which are still used today
    in making a tentative diagnosis. I've seen enough real-life examples to hazard
    a guess in many cases. It's important to realize, however, that what's unusual
    is a collection of features which might otherwise be relatively rare & that not
    everybody with DS has exactly the same features. The dummified explanations of
    DS don't acknowledge that there's more than one variety either. By comparison,
    if I see an article about leukemia in which the author says there are two kinds
    I may not learn much from him or her because I can think of five at least. ;-)



    Getting the proper movement in the tounge seems to be the
    trick with our son. When I work on words with him, I say
    them slow and in sections. Making a sound and then turning
    it into a word. Like "TTTTTTTTTTTTTRRRRRRRRR uck".


    As a former Learning Assistance teacher, I approve! Exaggeration is
    a great teaching tool, IMHO, along with doing these things in slow motion. :-)



    Once he masters a word, he likes saying it over and over.


    IOW, he seems to have a good handle on his own learning style. Nora
    was... and still is... like that too. When she first discovered the concept of
    parallel lines she drew grass in every one of the eight colours in her felt pen
    box a day at a time, and then she went on to experimenting with something else.
    Right now she's studying Alexander the Great with help from Yours Truly because
    she understands far more than she can read by herself & she's quite peeved that
    history was neglected in her Life Skills class. I'm enjoying the experience of
    reading this stuff with her because I did the same at more or less the same age
    (despite my own inadequacy WRT politics or memorizing names & dates of battles)
    & because I came under fire from a certain high school librarian who criticized
    me for reading the Iliad, the Odyssey, and the Aeneid one after the other. Her
    stance was that my choice of material lacked variety. My stance... if kids had
    been allowed to express personal opinions in those days... would have been that
    I'd go on to reading other things when I'd finished with that particular topic.
    One historian says Alexander used the same stallion until the day he died while
    another says he retired the same horse a few years earlier. If Nora & I hadn't
    read different accounts we probably wouldn't know that. I like her style. :-)



    He will say truck and bus all the time when he sees one
    while we are driving around.


    Ah... I gather he's interested in wheeled objects which enable folks
    to get from Point A to Point B. When Nora was about the same your son is now &
    we were on our way to the local shopping area with her in the stroller (because
    she couldn't walk that far yet) she pointed out & correctly named a bus, a car,
    and a bicycle. I was thinking to myself "Wow, she's categorizing!" I once had
    a student in grade five who couldn't do that. Further on, at a street where we
    had to wait for traffic lights, she pointed out & correctly named a wheelchair.
    The occupant of the wheelchair gave me a disapproving look... I reckon her mind
    was stuck in the 1950's, when kids were taught it's rude to notice such things.
    By then Nora & I had spent so much time in hospital that to us a wheelchair was
    just one of many similar conveyances. If the woman had said anything to me I'd
    have pointed out that we were using a stroller for the very same reason she was
    using a wheelchair. IMHO this scenario epitomizes the inadequacy of "political
    correctness". I tend to forget about the chair when I focus on the human being
    sitting in it, and we've found younger wheelchair users invariably co-operative
    when we remark "I see you're using a Snazzy 350. How's the turning circle...?"




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to Ardith Hinton on Tue Nov 15 14:50:27 2011


    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

    Not to change the subject, but my Mom just recently visited Vancouver (about two months ago) and thought it was one of the most beautiful places she has ever visited.

    ------------------

    One of the teachers that visits Alex every week for speech had noted that she was working with him to not suck his thumb while in circle time at school. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with him doing that at age 4. In fact, I was a thumb sucker myself and actually remember doing it. I don't know what age I stopped, but it might have been 5 or 6.

    It isn't a big deal, but just thought that was a bit odd that they mentioned it.

    We have been working on going to the potty. He imitates and will sit on it (with cloths on), going through the process, but that is as far as we have gotten.

    Just like other things he has accomplished, it will just happen one day and that will be it.

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Mark Hofmann on Tue Dec 6 22:56:14 2011
    Hi, Mark! Recently you wrote in a message to Richard Webb:

    It isn't that he can't do something, it just might be
    on a different timeline. We are all unique in our own
    way. That is what makes the world go around..


    Uh-huh. Nora could do the splits when she was very young... other folks practise for years before they can do that. In her case the "stretch" muscles developed sooner than the "bend" muscles.

    When I was thirty-five I realized I could play baseball as well as the average ten-year-old. Maybe I'm not a total failure in PE... I'm just a slow learner! I found the experience quite gratifying, at any rate.... ;-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to Ardith Hinton on Thu Dec 8 16:46:37 2011


    Uh-huh. Nora could do the splits when she was very young... other
    folks practise for years before they can do that. In her case the "stretch"
    muscles developed sooner than the "bend" muscles.

    Our son is very flexable. He can bend both legs completely sideways with little effort. That isn't something I could do without something ripping. He has been getting very strong, but still has that flexability.


    When I was thirty-five I realized I could play baseball as well as
    the average ten-year-old. Maybe I'm not a total failure in PE... I'm
    just a
    slow learner! I found the experience quite gratifying, at any rate....

    That is me with drawing. I believe the average 5 year old can draw better than
    me at age 42. :)

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Richard Webb on Wed Jan 4 23:52:35 2012
    Hi, Richard! Awhile ago you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    You'll always hear or read us stressing the term
    "alternative" because utilization of "substitute"
    connotes inferiority, not quite as good as.

    Makes sense to me. I did the same without thinking
    about it.... :-)

    YEp, a lot of what we perceive is through the language
    we use to describe it <g>.


    Agreed. One example I often used in my English classes is that the Inuit... whose survival may depend far more on a precise knowledge of which is which than either yours or mine does... have 36 different words for snow. For us all that really matters in the majority of cases is whether we need to take turns shovelling the stuff, what is likely to happen when people drive or walk on it or when it melts & refreezes, and whether we can still get around with a car or a wheelchair. As a native speaker of English whose ancestors (at least as far back as I can trace) resided south of the Arctic Circle, I'm limited to using adjectives & remembering the family who skied down our street once. :-)

    Once I have learned the name of a person or a plant or an animal, I begin to notice details I hadn't noticed before. The use of words may help us clarify our observations. Assigning a "filename" enables me to collect what I know about xxx somewhere in my brain where I can find it again & compare it to similar examples. Language is a tool which we can use to refine & clarify our thoughts. Language can also limit thought, however, and I think some concepts may be better expressed in one language than in another.

    Anyway, I understand why you're careful about the vocabulary you use with folks who are beginning to come to terms with a physical handicap of some sort. I could spit nails WRT those who spout whatever "political correctness" decrees without changing their thinking one iota... or who firmly believe that certain medical conditions are limited to senior citizens, nasty evil smokers, etc. etc. despite evidence to the contrary. Bottom line is, we've been there. And those of us who have been there tend to choose our words differently. ;-)



    Our young friend & her mother were so thrilled when they
    noticed their voices would sound different if they held a
    cushion close to their mouths that they couldn't resist
    showing us what they'd learned. To us as musicians it may
    seem obvious. But we weren't born knowing these things...
    we just paid our dues earlier. ;-)

    Indeed, musicians do have an advantage there <g>.


    Uh-huh. Although my learning mode is primarily visual, I'm grateful that the study of music has taught me to use my ears more efficiently.... :-)



    I've told more than one person that if the miraculous
    were to occur tomorrow and I'd find myself with full
    20/20 vision I probably would be so confused and
    disoriented I couldn't cope for quite a time, as my
    brain wouldn't know what to do with the input it was
    now receiving.


    Yes, I can well imagine what might happen in some parts of Vancouver ... especially where the pavement narrows at bus stops! Others tend to give a person with an obvious physical handicap a wide berth. I can't begin to count how many times I've been thumped on a vulnerable joint by various individuals, or by their purses & backpacks, because I look more or less able-bodied as far as they are concerned. Although they may have 20/20 vision they don't seem to notice what's going on around them in many cases. I must warn you that if the miraculous suddenly occurred you might find yourself wishing it hadn't. These people evidently have difficulty sorting out what matters from what doesn't in the big city, where the pace & quantity of visual input can be overwhelming at times even for those who have had decades of experience with it... [wry grin].

    I'm reminded here of a fellow Dallas & I met during our CB days. We knew he was blind before we invited him to visit our place. He coped so well, however, that by the time he enquired where the bathroom was I answered as I'd have answered a sighted person. We both had a good laugh when I realized just after I'd told him where to find the light switch that it was irrelevant. :-)



    Adding sensory input could potentially be as debilitating
    as taking it away.


    I imagine so. Visual input interferes with the alpha rhythms in the brain, as I learned from reading the report on some study or other while I was trapped in a hospital waiting room. More about alpha rhythms on request. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Richard Webb@1:116/901 to Ardith Hinton on Fri Jan 6 02:19:05 2012
    HEllo Ardith,

    On Wed 2012-Jan-04 23:52, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:

    You'll always hear or read us stressing the term
    "alternative" because utilization of "substitute"
    connotes inferiority, not quite as good as.

    Makes sense to me. I did the same without thinking
    about it.... :-)

    Figured you'd understand that one.

    <snip>

    Agreed. One example I often used in my English classes
    is that the Inuit... whose survival may depend far more on a precise knowledge of which is which than either yours or mine does... have
    36 different words for snow. For us all that really matters in the majority of cases is whether we need to take turns shovelling the
    stuff, what is likely to happen when people drive or walk on it or
    when it melts & refreezes, and whether we can still get around with
    a car or a wheelchair.

    Right, all those 36 words for snow describe some
    characteristic of it which needs to be communicated for
    survival. Snow that won't hold weight, snow that will, snow that's melting, snow that's too hard and packed to show
    tracks of animals, etc. etc.

    <snip>

    Once I have learned the name of a person or a plant or an animal, I begin to notice details I hadn't noticed before. The use
    of words may help us clarify our observations. Assigning a
    "filename" enables me to collect what I know about xxx somewhere in
    my brain where I can find it again & compare it to similar examples. Language is a tool which we can use to refine & clarify our
    thoughts. Language can also limit thought, however, and I think
    some concepts may be better expressed in one language than in
    another.

    Indeed, and the other parts of speech are just as important
    to our perceptions, and the perceptions of others. Again,
    alternative vs. substitute. An alternate teacher might have full knowledge of the lesson plan, the students to be taught and their abilities, whereas a "substitute" teacher is
    someone there to fill in for the day. HE/she doesn't really know the lesson plan, the capabilities of the students, etc.

    Anyway, I understand why you're careful about the
    vocabulary you use with folks who are beginning to come to terms
    with a physical handicap of some sort. I could spit nails WRT those
    who spout whatever "political correctness" decrees without changing
    their thinking one iota... or who firmly believe that certain
    medical conditions are limited to senior citizens, nasty evil
    smokers, etc. etc. despite evidence to the contrary. Bottom line
    is, we've been there. And those of us who have been there tend to
    choose our words differently. ;-)

    Right, it's a conscious choice we make, especially with
    newcomers we're trying to reach with the message that the
    loss of sight does not mean anything to them other than
    they're going to have to learn to interact with the world
    around them a bit differently in some ways. Words are
    powerful things. They tell the hearer or reader a lot about our attitudes. oFten they tell the hearer or reader more
    than we'd like them to infer, but like it or not they do.

    <snip again>

    Indeed, musicians do have an advantage there <g>.


    Uh-huh. Although my learning mode is primarily visual,
    I'm grateful that the study of music has taught me to use my ears
    more efficiently.... :-)

    I'm sure, and the opposite is true in my case. I have to
    think carefully when making a presentation about what sort
    of visual aids might help, I'm not used to thinking in those terms.


    I've told more than one person that if the miraculous
    were to occur tomorrow and I'd find myself with full
    20/20 vision I probably would be so confused and
    disoriented I couldn't cope for quite a time, as my
    brain wouldn't know what to do with the input it was
    now receiving.

    <snip again>
    Although they may have 20/20 vision they don't seem
    to notice what's going on around them in many cases. I must warn
    you that if the miraculous suddenly occurred you might find yourself wishing it hadn't. These people evidently have difficulty sorting
    out what matters from what doesn't in the big city, where the pace & quantity of visual input can be overwhelming at times even for those
    who have had decades of experience with it... [wry grin].

    Right, or even out in the woods, where I'm also comfortable. Sorting out meaningful input from the "noise" would probably be extremely difficult for me.
    A bird in flight, the shape
    of a leaf, all those things are just stuff I might or might
    not notice, unless the bird in flight flies close or
    directly across my path with my limited vision now I might
    not even notice it.

    I'm reminded here of a fellow Dallas & I met during our CB
    days. We knew he was blind before we invited him to visit our
    place. He coped so well, however, that by the time he enquired
    where the bathroom was I answered as I'd have answered a sighted
    person. We both had a good laugh when I realized just after I'd
    told him where to find the light switch that it was irrelevant. :-)

    I remember getting a sermon as a young man about not turning on a light in a bathroom by my mother. IT was just one of
    those things i never thought about.
    Even more interesting, I remember coming home from work when my eldest was a toddler to find my wife preparing supper,
    and the kid playing on the floor in our apartment, adn the
    place was pitch dark. I had to remind my lady that our
    child could see, and she should turn on lights for the kid
    <g>.

    There's a story I heard when I was young about two blind
    guys (brothers) who were remodeling a kitchen. They're
    working during the late evening hours, in the dark as they
    were doing this for the customer after hours. A local
    policeman stopped by as he heard all this banging and
    whatnot going on to find these two men busily installing
    custom kitchen cabinets they'd built. Then he asks why they didn'tturn on any lights. They seemed incredulous, as
    they're trying to figure out why they would turn on lights
    they didn't need. The officer explained that maybe people
    wouldn't be as concerned if they lit up their work area,
    because they'd be sure nothing nefarious was taking place.

    Adding sensory input could potentially be as debilitating
    as taking it away.

    I imagine so. Visual input interferes with the alpha
    rhythms in the brain, as I learned from reading the report on some
    study or other while I was trapped in a hospital waiting room. More
    about alpha rhythms on request. :-)

    I'd heard that one, but I'd surmise not as much for people
    who are used to processing it as part of their day to day
    existence. Give 20/20 vision to somebody like me though and I wouldn't be sure
    how to cope, as I said, separating signal from noise would be a challenge. What can safely be
    ignored, what can't? I'd have to relearn how to interact
    with the world around me.

    Regards,
    Richard
    ---
    * Origin: (1:116/901)
  • From Daryl Stout@1:19/33 to ARDITH HINTON on Sat Mar 3 02:47:00 2018
    Ardith,

    instructor doing. You're supposed to copy the hand signals in reverse....

    A fellow ham radio operator and her husband were signing "dirty jokes"
    to each other at a restaurant table. When nearby customers were
    laughing, they embarrassingly realized they could read their sign
    language!! <G>

    The best one though, was in a restaurant in Annapolis, Maryland. Four
    ol' boys were at a restaurant table, telling each other "dirty jokes" in
    Morse Code (also known as CW).

    This drop dead, gorgeous, curvaceous female walked up to the group,
    adn admonished them "You boys better watch your language. I teach CW at
    the Naval Academy across the street!!" and walked out.

    They were as red as tomatoes!! <BG>

    Daryl

    ===
    ■ OLX 1.53 ■ A computer's attention span is limited by its power cord.
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Win32
    * Origin: FIDONet: The Thunderbolt BBS - wx1der.dyndns.org (1:19/33)