From one of the guys in our community band: :-)


Improvisation -- what we do when the music falls down

Chords -- something organists play with one finger

Discords -- something organists play with two fingers

Suspended Chords -- useful for lynching the vocalist

Time Signatures -- trivial details often irrelevant to drummers

Melody -- an ancient, now almost extinct art in song writing




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hello ARdith,

On Tue 2039-Mar-08 21:06, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Anybody Interested:

Improvisation -- what we do when the music falls down

Also what we do when we're running out of songs to play and
want to make them last longer.

Chords -- something organists play with one finger

Depends on the organ I guess, but never was able to do that
with a Hammond b-3 (and glad that wasn't available there.)

Discords -- something organists play with two fingers

Oh yeah, especially if you're fat fingered or had a little
bit too much whiskey by the end of the night.

Suspended Chords -- useful for lynching the vocalist

Known a few of those for which that would have been
appropriate.

Time Signatures -- trivial details often irrelevant to
drummers

WOrked with a few who resembled that remark <grin>. I
endeavor not to.

For drummers for whom that was true often dynamics are
trivial as well.

Melody -- an ancient, now almost extinct art in song writing

Oh yeah, that's for sure. Back when I was doing studio for
hire I did a rap album for a young man. Never again!!!

Then there was the alternative band, not bad melodies, some
good words, but they wanted to run their vocals through
these awful guitar stomp boxes and a guitar amp and have
that track dominate over the actual capture of the singer's
voice in the room. <yech!>


Regards,
Richard
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hi, Richard! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

Improvisation -- what we do when the music falls down

Also what we do when we're running out of songs to play
and want to make them last longer.

Yup. :-)

Chords -- something organists play with one finger

Depends on the organ I guess, but never was able to do that
with a Hammond b-3 (and glad that wasn't available there.)

I imagine you know more about such things than I do! The definitions
were meant to be taken with a grain of salt, however, and this was the first in
a group of three which IMHO made a rather nice parallelism... [chuckle].

Time Signatures -- trivial details often irrelevant
to drummers

WOrked with a few who resembled that remark <grin>. I
endeavor not to.

For drummers for whom that was true often dynamics are
trivial as well.

Some people may be attracted to certain instruments because they like
making a lot of noise and/or because they believe (erroneously) that they won't
have to work as hard as others do. I've known folks who took up drums in order
to avoid learning to read music... I've known folks who took up the sax because
they thought it would be easier than the clarinet... and I knew one who took up
the trumpet because she thought it could play only three notes! As a teacher I
was often asked which instrument was easiest. My response was "Whichever *you*
want to play more than any other." I figured they'd be having such a good time
it wouldn't seem like work at all. But whatever the reason(s) for their choice
people use an instrument in a manner which reflects their personality.... :-))

Melody -- an ancient, now almost extinct art
in song writing

Oh yeah, that's for sure. Back when I was doing studio for
hire I did a rap album for a young man. Never again!!!

Uh-huh. Rap isn't my cup of tea either.... :-)

Then there was the alternative band, not bad melodies, some
good words, but they wanted to run their vocals through
these awful guitar stomp boxes and a guitar amp and have
that track dominate over the actual capture of the singer's
voice in the room. <yech!>

I'm reminded here of the younger teens who rehearsed in a back yard a
few doors down the street when I was a music student. They obviously wanted to
make an impression... and they got a bit carried away with amplifiers too. ;-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi Ardith,

On Tue 2039-Mar-22 23:06, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:

Chords -- something organists play with one finger

Depends on the organ I guess, but never was able to do that
with a Hammond b-3 (and glad that wasn't available there.)

I imagine you know more about such things than I do! The definitions were meant to be taken with a grain of salt, however,
and this was the first in a group of three which IMHO made a rather
nice parallelism... [chuckle].

YEp, caught onto that. I could figure out the accordions
with the one button chords and the various bass notes, it
was working the bellows was a problem for me <grin>.

For drummers for whom that was true often dynamics are
trivial as well.

Some people may be attracted to certain instruments
because they like making a lot of noise and/or because they believe (erroneously) that they won't have to work as hard as others do.
I've known folks who took up drums in order to avoid learning to
read music...

YEp, me too, but good drummers might wish to expand their
horizons. DOn't mind if they don't bother with the reading
the charts, but a metronome is essential if one's just
learning to play the drums <grin>.
I've known folks who took up the sax because they
<snip>

As a teacher I was often asked which instrument was easiest.
My response was "Whichever *you* want to play more than any other."
I figured they'd be having such a good time it wouldn't seem like
work at all. But whatever the reason(s) for their choice people use
an instrument in a manner which reflects their personality.... :-))

Indeed, would agree with all those assessments. I learned
piano first as it was by default what was taught first at
the school for the blind. HOwever, I maintain that if
you're serious about learning music the piano gives you all
elements right there, so it's easy to learn about musical
relationships, chord voicing, rhythmic elements.

I've known drummers who later on learned guitar as a writing tool, etc. Just seems to me that along with one's
instrument of interest learning piano gives one all the
basic building blocks, and can then easily provide one a
working basis for any other instrument he/she wishes to
learn.

<snip again>

Oh yeah, that's for sure. Back when I was doing studio for
hire I did a rap album for a young man. Never again!!!

Uh-huh. Rap isn't my cup of tea either.... :-)

YEah I know the feeling. I don't do sound reinforcement
these days, and rap folks don't usually hire somebody to
come on site and record their performances at the gig, so I
don't have to delve into that world these days.

Then there was the alternative band, not bad melodies, some
good words, but they wanted to run their vocals through
these awful guitar stomp boxes and a guitar amp and have
that track dominate over the actual capture of the singer's
voice in the room. <yech!>

I'm reminded here of the younger teens who rehearsed in a
back yard a few doors down the street when I was a music student.
They obviously wanted to make an impression... and they got a bit
carried away with amplifiers too. ;-)

HEard enough of that over the years. Sad thing was I liked
these kids' songs, but the awful vocal effects made it so
you couldn't understand the words, and the words were what
made those songs stand out.


Regards,
Richard
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: (1:116/901)

I'm addressing this to you Richard, because I pick on Ardith too much. It applies equally.

Ardith Hinton wrote to Richard Webb <=-

Hi, Richard! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

Improvisation -- what we do when the music falls down

Also what we do when we're running out of songs to play
and want to make them last longer.

Yup. :-)

"Where's that confounded bridge?"

Chords -- something organists play with one finger

Depends on the organ I guess, but never was able to do that
with a Hammond b-3 (and glad that wasn't available there.)

I imagine you know more about such things than I
do! The definitions were meant to be taken with a grain of
salt, however, and this was the first in a group of three
which IMHO made a rather nice parallelism... [chuckle].

MOD: Chords -- something accordionists play with one finger
PS: I just read your next post, so the MOD stands. <EG>

Time Signatures -- trivial details often irrelevant
to drummers

WOrked with a few who resembled that remark <grin>. I
endeavor not to.

For drummers for whom that was true often dynamics are
trivial as well.

We get all the blame, even if it *was* the base player/horn section! <L>

Some people may be attracted to certain instruments because
they like making a lot of noise and/or because they believe
(erroneously) that they won't have to work as hard as
others do. I've known folks who took up drums in order to
avoid learning to read music... I've known folks who took
up the sax because they thought it would be easier than the
clarinet... and I knew one who took up the trumpet because
she thought it could play only three notes! As a teacher I
was often asked which instrument was easiest. My response
was "Whichever *you* want to play more than any other." I
figured they'd be having such a good time it wouldn't seem
like work at all. But whatever the reason(s) for their
choice people use an instrument in a manner which reflects
their personality.... :-))

I've mentioned here earlier to Ardith, that when I was a wee lad I saw
these guitar players spend more time tuning their instruments than playing
the ruddy songs. "Nope, I just want to play!" Then, I counted the lugs on
my snare drum and later realized I had to double that number and adjust (mostly) all of those if my kick rattled the snares!!! !!! !!!

Boy, did I pick it wrong! <L>

Melody -- an ancient, now almost extinct art
in song writing

Oh yeah, that's for sure. Back when I was doing studio for
hire I did a rap album for a young man. Never again!!!

Uh-huh. Rap isn't my cup of tea either.... :-)

Smartest entertainers of our days! As mentioned, who needs to carry a tune these days or even annunciate the "lyrics"? I've hated on the current state
of "popular" music for years, but George Clinton said it best. In a mumble, "Whatever you say - and we tried - Rap music brought blacks and whites together for better or worse." (Paraphrased)

Then there was the alternative band, not bad melodies, some
good words, but they wanted to run their vocals through
these awful guitar stomp boxes and a guitar amp and have
that track dominate over the actual capture of the singer's
voice in the room. <yech!>

I mentioned Shirley Manson last year, and that band Garbage fits that description *exactly*. A couple of compatriots were extolling how they would run the snare drum through a Sans Amp, and Fuzz Box the electric keys, bla-bla-bla. Shirley has a great instrument, but the "producers" (Four or
five of them rounded out the rest of the lineup.) wet dream seemed to obfuscate it every chance it could. Now, Shirley's no Patsy Kline but she
has plenty to offer. Had it not been for those boys that discovered her, we would likely never know her name but, I'd still love to hear her do a
duet with The Holly Crow Trio.



... A backward poet writes inverse.
___ MultiMail/Linux v0.49

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: -=-= Calgary Organization CDN (403) 242-3221 (1:342/77)

HI James,

On Thu 2039-Mar-24 04:00, James Bradley (1:342/77) wrote to Richard Webb:

I'm addressing this to you Richard, because I pick on Ardith too
much. It applies equally.

<rotfl>

Improvisation -- what we do when the music falls down

Also what we do when we're running out of songs to play
and want to make them last longer.

Yup. :-)

"Where's that confounded bridge?"

"I'm just tryin' to find the bridge."

Btw it's funny how many young drummer come in and when I
ask them to show me an example of the kind of drum sound
that would come as close as could be to musical orgasm for
them if it were to be heard on their recording they play
that band for me. THen they look at me strange when I don't close mic the kit,
or even funnier when I tell 'em what we
need is a big room to record their drums in. I explain to them that you don't put your ear right up to a drum to
listen to it, which is essentially what you're doing with a
close mike. tHe Bonham studio sound was big rooms, only two or three microphones.

Chords -- something organists play with one finger

<snip>

MOD: Chords -- something accordionists play with one finger PS: I
just read your next post, so the MOD stands. <EG>

YOu bet!!!

Time Signatures -- trivial details often irrelevant
to drummers

WOrked with a few who resembled that remark <grin>. I
endeavor not to.

For drummers for whom that was true often dynamics are
trivial as well.

We get all the blame, even if it *was* the base player/horn section!

Yeah I know, bass players can do that easily, or other
rhythm section elements. USually because they're not paying close enough attention to the drums, or because they're
trying to push the tempo for other reasons, i.e.
uncomfortable singing at that tempo or similar. That's one
thing all the midi work did for me, it improved my sense of
when I was trying to push or pull the tempo.

I've mentioned here earlier to Ardith, that when I was a wee lad I
saw these guitar players spend more time tuning their instruments
than playing the ruddy songs. "Nope, I just want to play!" Then, I
counted the lugs on my snare drum and later realized I had to
double that number and adjust (mostly) all of those if my kick
rattled the snares!!! !!! !!!

YEp, the tension adjustment for the snares, the lugs on the
top heads, lugs on the bottom heads.

You'd be surprised in my bar band days though how many times I'd go to a gig to
find a pickup drummer who didn't have a
drum key or common hand tool.s A drum key, common hand
tools, and wd40 for kick drum pedals was part of my gotta
have it toolkit for gigging.

Boy, did I pick it wrong! <L>

Yeah I know, think about those guys carrying those cp-80
Yamaha "electric grand" pianos with the pickups. 88 keys. AT least they didn't have the unisons in the middle and upper
regions.

Melody -- an ancient, now almost extinct art
in song writing

Oh yeah, that's for sure. Back when I was doing studio for
hire I did a rap album for a young man. Never again!!!

<snip>

Smartest entertainers of our days! As mentioned, who needs to carry
a tune these days or even annunciate the "lyrics"? I've hated on
the current state of "popular" music for years, but George Clinton
said it best. In a mumble, "Whatever you say - and we tried - Rap
music brought blacks and whites together for better or worse."

YEah I know, I see as many suburban white kids digging that
stuff as black kids. I just shake my head. That rap album
I did was for a suburban white kid. <go figure>.

I mentioned Shirley Manson last year, and that band Garbage fits
that description *exactly*. A couple of compatriots were extolling
how they would run the snare drum through a Sans Amp, and Fuzz Box
the electric keys, bla-bla-bla. Shirley has a great instrument, but
the "producers" (Four or five of them rounded out the rest of the
lineup.) wet dream seemed to obfuscate it every chance it could.
Now, Shirley's no Patsy Kline but she has plenty to offer. Had it
not been for those boys that discovered her, we would likely never
know her name but, I'd still love to hear her do a duet with The
Holly Crow Trio.

I always thought the same, I'd like to hear her voice
without all that. But then you have to remember that Butch
Vigg is heavily into that stuff. That was sort of the
effect this alternative band I mentioned was going for.



Regards,
Richard
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hi, James! Recently you wrote in a message to Richard Webb:

I'm addressing this to you Richard, because I pick on
Ardith too much. It applies equally.

I always wanted a little brother & I understand teasing Sis goes with
the territory, but I'm glad to see you & Richard exchanging messages. :-)

Chords -- something organists play with one finger

Depends on the organ I guess, but never was able to do that
with a Hammond b-3 (and glad that wasn't available there.)

I imagine you know more about such things than I do! The
definitions were meant to be taken with a grain of salt,
however, and this was the first in a group of three
which IMHO made a rather nice parallelism... [chuckle].

MOD: Chords -- something accordionists play with one finger

Yes, that would work. But Richard also brought up an important point
which I almost missed until I'd made some further enquiries. Serious musicians
who do keyboards professionally are in a very different category from the "play
by numbers" crowd. They tend to use the Hammond B3 whereas Grandma Potts would
use a Hammond "S" series chord organ or something similar... i.e. probably what
the majority of non-musicians think of as an "organ" nowadays.

A chord organ can produce a limited repertoire of chords at the touch
of a button in much the same way as the electronic keyboard which Nora uses for
music therapy can produce a few artificial "boom-chick-chick" percussion sounds
on demand. In this household there is no demand. It's more beneficial for her
& more satisfying for us if she uses her left hand as best she can right now...
and remains motivated to improve. AFAIC folks like you & Richard needn't worry
about being replaced by electronic substitutes, but many people seem to believe
any fool can play keyboards or sing or play drums or whatever. I'm inclined to
think the author of these jokes is taking a sly dig at wannabe musicians. :-))

I've mentioned here earlier to Ardith, that when I was a wee
lad I saw these guitar players spend more time tuning their
instruments than playing the ruddy songs. "Nope, I just want
to play!" Then, I counted the lugs on my snare drum

In any case, I agree that it's worth repeating... [chuckle].




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hello Ardith,

On Sat 2039-Mar-26 23:52, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to James Bradley:

I always wanted a little brother & I understand teasing
Sis goes with the territory, but I'm glad to see you & Richard
exchanging messages. :-)

YEp, we've chatted in live_audio and a couple of other
places too <grin>.

Yes, that would work. But Richard also brought up an
important point which I almost missed until I'd made some further enquiries. Serious musicians who do keyboards professionally are in
a very different category from the "play by numbers" crowd. They
tend to use the Hammond B3 whereas Grandma Potts would use a Hammond
"S" series chord organ or something similar... i.e. probably what
the majority of non-musicians think of as an "organ" nowadays.

<snip>

YEp, and I get so frustrated with their limitations. That
was my beef with the first pattern based drum boxes, so
limiting. I used them as beat boxes on one man shows
occasionally, but then a guy turned me onto midi when I was
working on a band's project in his studio. I had a little
windfall from that project and another, and he'd been trying to get me to join the midi world for a long time. THis was
back in the early '90's btw. HE sat me down in his control
room with a good 76 key keyboard controller, an Alesis mmt-8 sequencer and An Alesis drum module and another couple of
midi modules in a rack.
I ended up spending about $3k by the time I left his shop
that afternoon <grin>.

sInce then I"ve used the midi automation with synthesizers
etc. to do entire music beds for some jingles and other
projects. OFten I'd do midi drums, percussion then replace
the trap drums with an actual drummer, or bring in musicians for extra parts such as guitars, and of course vocals
<grin>.

Richard needn't worry about being replaced by electronic
substitutes, but many people seem to believe any fool can play
keyboards or sing or play drums or whatever. I'm inclined to think
the author of these jokes is taking a sly dig at wannabe musicians.
:-))

OH yeah, lots of those. I've seen a lot of those, from
various points of view. I'm sure you both noted mine that I found elsewhere on
the lady wanting the wedding reception
band <grin>. That was my biggest problem with the midi
thing live, people treat it in the same manner they would
hiring a dj for karaoke night or something. tHey don't
realize that getting a midi repertoir of a bunch of popular
tunes arranged for your voice etc. is a pretty good sized
endeavor.
I may not hire a horn section or bass player at $45/hour to
play on your music bed for your jingle, but I'll spend an 8
hour day on your 30 second jingle with donut, etc.
Back in the mid to late nineties back in the midwest I did a lot of arranging for songwriter demos too.




Regards,
Richard
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Richard Webb wrote to James Bradley <=-

...

"Where's that confounded bridge?"

"I'm just tryin' to find the bridge."

Little known quote from the same group:

"We've done four already but now we're steady and then they went."

Btw it's funny how many young drummer come in and when I
ask them to show me an example of the kind of drum sound
that would come as close as could be to musical orgasm for
them if it were to be heard on their recording they play
that band for me. THen they look at me strange when I
don't close mic the kit, or even funnier when I tell 'em
what we
need is a big room to record their drums in. I explain
to them that you don't put your ear right up to a drum to
listen to it, which is essentially what you're doing with a
close mike. tHe Bonham studio sound was big rooms, only
two or three microphones.

Yup... Can't capture *that* in an iso-booth. Even when the old codger was playing quiet, he was LOUD.

Chords -- something organists play with one finger

<snip>

MOD: Chords -- something accordionists play with one finger PS: I
just read your next post, so the MOD stands. <EG>

YOu bet!!!

L!!! Bagpipers do it by just blowing hard.

...

We get all the blame, even if it *was* the base player/horn section!

Yeah I know, bass players can do that easily, or other
rhythm section elements. USually because they're not
paying close enough attention to the drums, or because
they're
trying to push the tempo for other reasons, i.e.
uncomfortable singing at that tempo or similar. That's one
thing all the midi work did for me, it improved my sense of
when I was trying to push or pull the tempo.

What an eyeopener when I first tried to play along to my drum box. Sitting
"in the pocket" is the sign of a good player, but if one other member of
the rhythm section tries to drag that pocket further, often with the best
of intentions - "That drummer can't keep time." If the person holding the sticks notices the singer struggling with the tempo, a great player can
adjust to take one for the team. "That drummer can't keep time." even if
it *was* the keyboardist that initiated the tempo shift. <G>

YEp, the tension adjustment for the snares, the lugs on the
top heads, lugs on the bottom heads.

I have a marching snare here that I can adjust each snare wire
tension independently from each other. Each side of the basket is height adjustable also. It's the second such arrangement I've had in my stable,
but I sold the first out of stupidity. That old unit was a 'snap' to
adjust. <chuckle> It took forever to get just right, but my, did it sing!

You'd be surprised in my bar band days though how many
times I'd go to a gig to find a pickup drummer who didn't
have a
drum key or common hand tool.s A drum key, common hand
tools, and wd40 for kick drum pedals was part of my gotta
have it toolkit for gigging.

WD40 didn't *exist* in my bar-daze! Still, a box of fluids, a box of tools, and a box of expendable were always on my list. Inside one of those boxes
was always a box of band-aids, mole-skin and what-nots. Besides sticks and skins, drumming is expensive! If you haven't worked for a while, physically you might not make it through a night.

Boy, did I pick it wrong! <L>

Yeah I know, think about those guys carrying those cp-80
Yamaha "electric grand" pianos with the pickups. 88 keys.
AT least they didn't have the unisons in the middle and
upper RW> regions.

"Unisons"????

<snip>

Smartest entertainers of our days! As mentioned, who needs to carry
a tune these days or even annunciate the "lyrics"? I've hated on
the current state of "popular" music for years, but George Clinton
said it best. In a mumble, "Whatever you say - and we tried - Rap
music brought blacks and whites together for better or worse."

YEah I know, I see as many suburban white kids digging that
stuff as black kids. I just shake my head. That rap album
I did was for a suburban white kid. <go figure>.

A neighbour and I have been working on a "suburban white kid" for her
tastes in tunes. What're you gonna do, eh? <L> A few Holloweens ago, I was doling out the treats to a few late stragglers when a car drove by thumpin' and bumpin' so loud I could hear something in the trunk rattling. I asked
the girls what it must sound like *inside* that vehicle if it sounds so bad from here. <Cha-G>

...

Now, Shirley's no Patsy Kline but she has plenty to offer. Had it
not been for those boys that discovered her, we would likely never
know her name but, I'd still love to hear her do a duet with The
Holly Crow Trio.

I always thought the same, I'd like to hear her voice
without all that. But then you have to remember that Butch
Vigg is heavily into that stuff. That was sort of the
effect this alternative band I mentioned was going for.

I suppose the experiment that was Garbage worked and was valid as art, but
I still don't hang it on my wall either. I just wonder if they were an instrumental group how well the music would hold up. Different strokes, I suppose....


... James
___ MultiMail/Linux v0.49

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: -=-= Calgary Organization CDN (403) 242-3221 (1:342/77)

HI James,

On Thu 2039-Mar-31 23:20, James Bradley (1:342/77) wrote to Richard Webb:

<snip>

Btw it's funny how many young drummer come in and when I
ask them to show me an example of the kind of drum sound
that would come as close as could be to musical orgasm for
them if it were to be heard on their recording they play
that band for me. THen they look at me strange when I
don't close mic the kit, or even funnier when I tell 'em
what we
need is a big room to record their drums in. I explain
to them that you don't put your ear right up to a drum to
listen to it, which is essentially what you're doing with a
close mike. The Bonham studio sound was big rooms, only
two or three microphones.

Yup... Can't capture *that* in an iso-booth. Even when the old
codger was playing quiet, he was LOUD.

YEah I know, big kick drum, both heads on the toms too iirc. A friend of mine who was a big Bonzo buff played a 6 piece
Rogers, wood shells, pre-cbs. I used to make studio
engineers cry when I'd use him when I was "briefcase
engineering" projects at their facilities and would use him
as my drummer for the date if I was producing also. I'd
insist I didn't want the studio's kit, I wanted to set up
his Rogers. They'd moan and make unhappy noises, but I
would often explain that I recorded his kit so often that it was already optimized for the studio, just tweak the tuning
and set him down, play the track. I loved recording that
kit. PUt a stereo pair of Neumann 105's on the overhead, an EV re-20 on the kick drum, an sm-57 on the snare, sort of
between snare and high hats, and we were ready to rock 'n
roll.
IN the room I used most often for him I knew just where I
wanted to set him up too. That studio had a beautiful drum
room, more than the usual iso booth. GOod sight lines
through glass to the big room containing the rest of the
musos, and good sight lines to the control room too.
Then the engineer makes it suck to the maximum by taking out his Ludwigs and putting in those sImmons drum pad things
with the sImmons drum brain, which I never thought sounded
that good.
That dates these projects I'm referring to for you as well
I'm sure.

<snip>

Yeah I know, bass players can do that easily, or other
rhythm section elements. USually because they're not
paying close enough attention to the drums, or because
they're
trying to push the tempo for other reasons, i.e.
uncomfortable singing at that tempo or similar. That's one
thing all the midi work did for me, it improved my sense of
when I was trying to push or pull the tempo.

What an eyeopener when I first tried to play along to my drum box.
Sitting "in the pocket" is the sign of a good player, but if one
other member of the rhythm section tries to drag that pocket
further, often with the best of intentions - "That drummer can't
keep time." If the person holding the sticks notices the singer
struggling with the tempo, a great player can adjust to take one
for the team. "That drummer can't keep time." even if it *was* the keyboardist that initiated the tempo shift. <G>

Yeah I know, i"ve seen that often, a musician has difficulty playing the part at tempo, so he pushes or pulls the beat.
IF I found myself doing that I'd just give more attention to rehearsing that piece.

YEp, the tension adjustment for the snares, the lugs on the
top heads, lugs on the bottom heads.

I have a marching snare here that I can adjust each snare wire
tension independently from each other. Each side of the basket is
height adjustable also. It's the second such arrangement I've had
in my stable, but I sold the first out of stupidity. That old unit
was a 'snap' to adjust. <chuckle> It took forever to get just
right, but my, did it sing!

OH yeah, that would be nice. For when you don't have
capability that's when htat moleskin's handy <grin>.

You'd be surprised in my bar band days though how many
times I'd go to a gig to find a pickup drummer who didn't
have a
drum key or common hand tool.s A drum key, common hand
tools, and wd40 for kick drum pedals was part of my gotta
have it toolkit for gigging.

WD40 didn't *exist* in my bar-daze! Still, a box of fluids, a box of
tools, and a box of expendable were always on my list. Inside one
of those boxes was always a box of band-aids, mole-skin and
what-nots. Besides sticks and skins, drumming is expensive! If you
haven't worked for a while, physically you might not make it
through a night.

That's for sure. Back before wd40 when working I wasn't as
altruistic, if the folks didn't have what they needed to
handle that squeaky kick drum pedal it was no problem, as
often we weren't placing mikes on drums in those days.
Thankfully, the arrival of wd40 coincided with folks wanting to close mike drums for live engagements.
Always a pet peeve of mine, put all those mikes on a kit and then only use the kick mike a little bit.

Yeah I know, think about those guys carrying those cp-80
Yamaha "electric grand" pianos with the pickups. 88 keys.
AT least they didn't have the unisons in the middle and
upper RW> regions.

"Unisons"????

Unisons: Multiple strings sounding same note. Look inside
a regular piano, from the middle to the top you'll see 2-3
strings per each note. IF three per note (often the mids
and uppers) you use a temperament strip, and/or rubber
wedges to mute the two outside (unisons) strings, tune the
middle one with the wrench, then check things out with
chords. Then you go back through tuning the unisons, mute
one with a rubber wedge, tune it to the center string,
unmute the one you muted, mute the one you just tuned and
tune it.
IF you fail to get the unisons in tune get 'em close, and
say you're playing old ragtime piano, and just stick
thumbtacks in the hammers <g..

Smartest entertainers of our days! As mentioned, who needs to carry
a tune these days or even annunciate the "lyrics"? I've hated on
the current state of "popular" music for years, but George Clinton
said it best. In a mumble, "Whatever you say - and we tried - Rap
music brought blacks and whites together for better or worse."

YEah I know, I see as many suburban white kids digging that
stuff as black kids. I just shake my head. That rap album
I did was for a suburban white kid. <go figure>.

A neighbour and I have been working on a "suburban white kid" for
her tastes in tunes. What're you gonna do, eh? <L> A few Holloweens
ago, I was doling out the treats to a few late stragglers when a
car drove by thumpin' and bumpin' so loud I could hear something in
the trunk rattling. I asked the girls what it must sound like
*inside* that vehicle if it sounds so bad from here. <Cha-G>

YEah bet they couldn't answer you. I dont' hear nearly as
much of that living on a dead end street in a small town
<grin>.

Now, Shirley's no Patsy Kline but she has plenty to offer. Had it
not been for those boys that discovered her, we would likely never
know her name but, I'd still love to hear her do a duet with The
Holly Crow Trio.

I always thought the same, I'd like to hear her voice
without all that. But then you have to remember that Butch
Vigg is heavily into that stuff. That was sort of the
effect this alternative band I mentioned was going for.

I suppose the experiment that was Garbage worked and was valid as
art, but I still don't hang it on my wall either. I just wonder if
they were an instrumental group how well the music would hold up.
Different strokes, I suppose....

Yeah I don't know if it would hold up as instrumental music. I recorded another
"alternative" band though back in those
days that did hold up as instrumental music quite well.
They didn't totally wreck the voice with processing though.
They just insisted on doing the mix with the vocals buried
too far in all the layers of stuff which disappointed me,
but it's their stuff.
tHis might be getting big for distro, so funny story in next msg.

Regards,
Richard
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: (1:116/901)

HI James,

THis alternative band I mentioned, 5 pieces, 2 guitars, bass drums and singer, different members also played a variety of other instruments.
This was the band that used my lady's AFrican war drums for
auxillary percussion on one of their cuts, think I mentioned that. I wished I could have put those in a big room to
capture.

Anyway, on with this story. The singer was fair, when he'd
relax. Getting him to relax though so that his posture and
other factors would combine for a good vocal take was
difficult. HE sort of stood slouched, which didn't help him for good breathing. OF course, the guitarist and principal
songwriter wrote these songs that required the singer to
deliver long flowing lines without good places for a catch
breath. HIs stance didn't lend to a good clear airway.

But even worse, the kid was just a nervous Nellie in the
studio. We'd bring him over, I'd record him in a room with
low ambient lighting and an area light for his cheat sheet
when/if needed. But then, as soon as he knew that this one
was a keeper take he'd tense up his body, breathing would go to heck, and we'd be punching in phrases all night.

So I'd fool the kid. Bring him in, hand him the headphones, get the mix in his
cans where he was happy with it then
"let's do a dry run through this make sure that there are no level changes that
will surprise the blind man."

We'd record him clear through the song, then I'd say "come
on in and listen to this, I was recording."

HE never did catch on, but often it was easier to capture
the main vocal track that way, and do a couple of punch-ins
to fix things. OTherwise most of the vocal track would
require punches.

Regards,
Richard
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hi, James! Recently you wrote in a message to Richard Webb:

You'd be surprised in my bar band days though how many
times I'd go to a gig to find a pickup drummer who didn't
have a drum key or common hand tool.s A drum key, common
hand tools, and wd40 for kick drum pedals was part of my
gotta have it toolkit for gigging.

WD40 didn't *exist* in my bar-daze! Still, a box of fluids,
a box of tools, and a box of expendable were always on my
list. Inside one of those boxes was always a box of band-
aids, mole-skin and what-nots.

Things I've learned from studying music... you two anticipated what might go wrong & came prepared. Before Richard joined us here I mentioned the Hoffnung cartoon in which the clarinet player has a dictionary protruding from his hip pocket & admitted that on occasion I carried a dictionary in my purse. Yes, you'll probably find a high percentage of nerds... including me... in the clarinet section! But I'm reminded also of the former student who told me I'd taught him to be prepared. At the time, it didn't occur to me to include that in the lesson plans I was expected to hand in monthly to the school office. I was just being myself. With experience I realized the majority of normal red- blooded kids study the teacher at least as intently as whatever the teacher is blathering about. I reckon after a few years in my band class he knew more or less what I kept in my pockets, my clarinet case, and my desk drawer.... :-))




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi again, James! This is a continuation of my previous message to you:

[re chords]

L!!! Bagpipers do it by just blowing hard.

Well... I suppose they might have to blow hard initially to fill the bladder with air, but AFAIK it's the drones which supply the "harmony". From the standpoint of a clarinet player one of the scary things about bagpipes is that the drones & the reed seem to do their own thing (almost) independently. Another is that while I would put more air into my instrument to produce more volume, bagpipe players seem to do it when the bladder is about to run out of air. I inhale when my lungs are about to run out of air. As a member of the audience you'd realize that I do it at the end of a phrase or whatever... but for me watching a piper is like watching a person speaking a foreign language with dubbing in English. I can't reconcile what I see with what I hear. :-)

"That drummer can't keep time." even if it *was* the
keyboardist that initiated the tempo shift. <G>

In our community band it's usually the trumpets or the flutes or the saxes... never the clarinets! But as John Bradshaw has pointed out, blame is like a hot potato which everybody is trying to pass on to somebody else. ;-)

George Clinton said it best. In a mumble, "Whatever
you say - and we tried - Rap music brought blacks and
whites together for better or worse."

So did jazz. When I was learning to play the clarinet, people often asked "Why do you want to play the clarinet? That's a boy's instrument!" By the time I'd graduated from university it was a girl's instrument. To me the whims of fashion are of no great concern... but the behaviour of human beings in groups is very intriguing. Among professional musicians & their fans such trivia as gender & skin colour are irrelevant from where I sit. Dallas often played in mostly black groups to mostly white *adult* audiences. I wonder if these suburban kids relate to rap music because their parents don't... [BEG].

A few Holloweens ago,

|I have heard many people pronounce it that way
recently, but where I come from it's AKA All
Hallows' Eve... the day before All Saints' Day.
For those of us whose grandparents were farmers
"hallow" rhymes with "fallow" & "tallow". :-))

I was doling out the treats to a few late stragglers
when a car drove by thumpin' and bumpin' so loud I
could hear something in the trunk rattling. I asked the
girls what it must sound like *inside* that vehicle if
it sounds so bad from here.

Well done! Now I'm curious as to the response. When I had students in grade eight who informed me they didn't like anything except rock music, I figured that was all they knew. After being exposed to a variety of stuff in my class a few of them admitted they also enjoyed other genres at times. :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hello Ardith,

On Thu 2039-Apr-07 15:42, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to James Bradley:

Well... I suppose they might have to blow hard initially to
fill the bladder with air, but AFAIK it's the drones which supply
the "harmony". From the standpoint of a clarinet player one of the
scary things about bagpipes is that the drones & the reed seem to do
their own thing (almost) independently. Another is that while I
would put more air into my instrument to produce more volume,
bagpipe players seem to do it when the bladder is about to run out
of air. I inhale when my lungs are about to run out of air. As a
member of the audience you'd realize that I do it at the end of a
phrase or whatever... but for me watching a piper is like watching a
person speaking a foreign language with dubbing in English. I can't reconcile what I see with what I hear. :-)

INdeed, is the same for most wind instruments that are
powerd by the player's breath, iow pump organs bagpipes etc. though technically
wind instruments don't qualify.

But then remember that not reconciling what you see with
what's happening is another part of what those things do,
always remember they were created as munitions.
Entertainment wasn't their thing.

<snippety doo dah>

Among professional musicians & their fans such trivia
as gender & skin colour are irrelevant from where I sit. Dallas
often played in mostly black groups to mostly white *adult*
audiences. I wonder if these suburban kids relate to rap music
because their parents don't... [BEG].

I think that's a big part of it with the young folks, as it
was with young folks of our generations too. ONe thing that helped me was the older kids at the school for the blind,
where ad hoc combos of musicians were as ubiquitous as
sandlot baseball among neighborhood sighted kids. Also, I
had an uncle who was heavily into older forms of jazz. HE
could sit down with me as I was listening to rock 'n roll,
then put something else on the stereo and show me how one
lead to the other.
Then I got into the bebop era, and that disappointed him a
bit. But, I was playing with two or three different groups
of folks then (high school years) everything from younger
black folks playing soul MOtown etc. to older mixed racially organizations, to rock 'n roll & country depending on the
group of folks and where we played.
You've got to remember this was late '60's early '70's, and
exploration was the driving force, at least in my world.


Regards,
Richard
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hi, Richard! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

[re bagpipes]

[...] not reconciling what you see with what's
happening is another part of what those things
do, always remember they were created as munitions.

Could be. The war pipes... i.e. the kind others think of when they think of bagpipes... were *supposed* to scare the heck out of the enemy. They sound nice from a few miles away, though, if one is not in any danger.... :-)

Entertainment wasn't their thing.

Yes. I'm more likely to hear them at the local pub on Robbie Burns Day... that's entertainment AFAIC, considering I won't be required to read ODE TO A HAGGIS or something of the sort aloud (I taught English too). I can just relax & marvel at how well I understand strange accents these days, and wonder why the piper decided to fill the bladder when s/he got to wherever I am. :-)

I wonder if these suburban kids relate to rap music
because their parents don't... [BEG].

I think that's a big part of it with the young folks,
as it was with young folks of our generations too.

Things I've learned from hanging out with the neighbours... after I had been listening to 1960's folk rock in a teenage girl's bedroom, her father said to her "Why don't you listen to good music like [what I'm listening to at the moment]?" I realized immediately that for him good music = what he liked, and I recognized the station as one which played a lot of "golden oldies". So as a band teacher I estimated the average age of the parents in the audience & did a number at every concert which was popular when they were teenagers. ;-)

ONe thing that helped me was the older kids at the
school for the blind, where ad hoc combos of musicians
were as ubiquitous as sandlot baseball among
neighborhood sighted kids.

Meanwhile Dallas & I... being, as it were, neither fish nor fowl... spent much of our time soaking up anything we could find which had printing on it. Yet IMHO we were all honing the skills we'd need in our adult lives. :-)

Also, I had an uncle who was heavily into older forms
of jazz. HE could sit down with me as I was listening
to rock 'n roll, then put something else on the stereo
and show me how one lead to the other.

Good pedagogical technique! I did much the same with my father one day when I was alone at home with him. By then I was in university, and I had a recording of Wanda Landowska playing harpsichord with a bunch of stops which I've never heard used anywhere else. As usual my father was listening to hard rock on the radio because he was accustomed to a noisy work environment & felt uncomfortable without background noise... i.e. his preferred variety of noise. He also liked honky-tonk piano, however. I explained to him that the sound of the harpsichord was similar & persuaded him to listen for a few moments. When the music ended I could have put on anything with a harpsichord in it. And as a band teacher I often demonstrated how something which was on the current hit parade was an updated version of the music teens say they don't like.... :-))

[...] this was late '60's early '70's, and exploration
was the driving force, at least in my world.

Uh-huh. In retrospect I'd say the music which grabbed my attention at the same age differed a bit... but not too much... from what I was used to.

Exploration is a driving force with teens & young adults. They are learning by trial & error what works for them, and stimulating the development of the appropriate brain cells. If their parents weren't so incredibly boring they probably wouldn't have the courage to leave home & take on that big scary world outside. Seems to me both of us were more or less on target there. :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hello Ardith,

On Tue 2039-Apr-12 18:16, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:

[...] not reconciling what you see with what's
happening is another part of what those things
do, always remember they were created as munitions.

Could be. The war pipes... i.e. the kind others think of
when they think of bagpipes... were *supposed* to scare the heck out
of the enemy. They sound nice from a few miles away, though, if one
is not in any danger.... :-)

RIght, but when they're oming close they make quite a noise
<grin>.


<snip>

I wonder if these suburban kids relate to rap music
because their parents don't... [BEG].

I think that's a big part of it with the young folks,
as it was with young folks of our generations too.

Things I've learned from hanging out with the
neighbours... after I had been listening to 1960's folk rock in a
teenage girl's bedroom, her father said to her "Why don't you listen
to good music like [what I'm listening to at the moment]?" I
realized immediately that for him good music = what he liked, and I recognized the station as one which played a lot of "golden oldies".
So as a band teacher I estimated the average age of the parents in
the audience & did a number at every concert which was popular when
they were teenagers. ;-)

GOod plan. Makes the parents feel better too when they hear something they recognize <grin>.

ONe thing that helped me was the older kids at the
school for the blind, where ad hoc combos of musicians
were as ubiquitous as sandlot baseball among
neighborhood sighted kids.

Meanwhile Dallas & I... being, as it were, neither fish
nor fowl... spent much of our time soaking up anything we could find
which had printing on it. Yet IMHO we were all honing the skills
we'd need in our adult lives. :-)

YEp, hopefully will never quit "honing my skills."

Also, I had an uncle who was heavily into older forms
of jazz. HE could sit down with me as I was listening
to rock 'n roll, then put something else on the stereo
and show me how one lead to the other.

Good pedagogical technique! I did much the same with my
father one day when I was alone at home with him. By then I was in university, and I had a recording of Wanda Landowska playing
harpsichord with a bunch of stops which I've never heard used
anywhere else. As usual my father was listening to hard rock on the
radio because he was accustomed to a noisy work environment & felt uncomfortable without background noise... i.e. his preferred variety
of noise. He also liked honky-tonk piano, however. I explained to
him that the sound of the harpsichord was similar & persuaded him to
listen for a few moments. When the music ended I could have put on anything with a harpsichord in it. And as a band teacher I often demonstrated how something which was on the current hit parade was
an updated version of the music teens say they don't like.... :-))

INdeed, we find it easier to get behind the unfamiliar if
it's presented in a familiar context.

[...] this was late '60's early '70's, and exploration
was the driving force, at least in my world.

Uh-huh. In retrospect I'd say the music which grabbed my attention at the same age differed a bit... but not too much... from
what I was used to.

rIght, but there again my cultural frames of reference were
all over the map, thanks to residential school with kids
from all sorts of backgrounds.

Exploration is a driving force with teens & young adults.
They are learning by trial & error what works for them, and
stimulating the development of the appropriate brain cells. If
their parents weren't so incredibly boring they probably wouldn't
have the courage to leave home & take on that big scary world
outside. Seems to me both of us were more or less on target there.
:-)

INdeed, and now in middle age I find myself reluctant often
to explore the unfamiliar, being just waht I criticized my
parents for eing in fact. THat's one thing i enjoyed about
living in NEw ORleans, it forced me to come out of the
cocoon of the familiar a bit once e in awhile, try a food
from somewhere else, check out some music that I normally
wouldn't encounter, etc.

Regards,
Richard
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hi, Richard! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

The war pipes... i.e. the kind others think of when they
think of bagpipes... were *supposed* to scare the heck
out of the enemy. They sound nice from a few miles away,
though, if one is not in any danger.... :-)

RIght, but when they're oming close they make quite a
noise <grin>.

Uh-huh. And if a student asks you to help him tune his drones you do *not* want to do it in a small practice room. I made that mistake once, when I
was young & foolish. I won't do it again.... :-)))

So as a band teacher I estimated the average age of the
parents in the audience & did a number at every concert
which was popular when they were teenagers. ;-)

GOod plan. Makes the parents feel better too when they
hear something they recognize <grin>.

Agreed. I imagine you've used the same principle in your own work...
and I've noticed the conductor of our community band doing it as well. We play
at a lot of nursing homes where the age of the audience is fairly predictable &
we use a book of folk songs, hymns, light classics etc. in our warmup. Chances
are the "older" crowd will recognize at least one of any three numbers.... :-)

ONe thing that helped me was the older kids at the
school for the blind, where ad hoc combos of musicians
were as ubiquitous as sandlot baseball among
neighborhood sighted kids.

Meanwhile Dallas & I... being, as it were, neither fish
nor fowl... spent much of our time soaking up anything
we could find which had printing on it. Yet IMHO we were
all honing the skills we'd need in our adult lives. :-)

YEp, hopefully will never quit "honing my skills."

Glad to hear it.... :-)

In retrospect I'd say the music which grabbed my
attention at the same age differed a bit... but not too
much... from what I was used to.

rIght, but there again my cultural frames of reference
were all over the map, thanks to residential school with
kids from all sorts of backgrounds.

Ah... thanks for the clarification! I wasn't sure in which order you
attended which school because I've known various people who for various reasons
transferred to a more specialized environment later. At residential school you
would indeed encounter a variety of kids, and you'd also have an opportunity to
get to know them in a way you wouldn't if everyone was returning home at night.
One of the things I appreciate about the schools I went to is the socioeconomic
mix I found there. Although I didn't have the same opportunity you did to join
ad hoc combos, I learned to get along with people from various walks of life...
and I learned that they tend to have different tastes in music. My only regret
is that figuring out what works for me took so many years because the classical
snobs & those of decidedly more plebian tastes occupied so much bandwidth. :-/

now in middle age I find myself reluctant often to explore
the unfamiliar, being just waht I criticized my parents for
eing in fact.

The upside of middle age is that we already know what suits us & have
the gumption to be who we are regardless of whether or not others approve. The
downside is that we can easily become set in our ways to such an extent that we
resist trying something new. As I grow older, I find myself becoming more like
my mother. But FWIW I also understand more about what made her tick... [grin].




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

HEllo Ardith,

On Sat 2039-May-14 23:32, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:


<snip>

Uh-huh. And if a student asks you to help him tune his
drones you do *not* want to do it in a small practice room. I made
that mistake once, when I was young & foolish. I won't do it
again.... :-)))

<rotfl> INdeed. Still remember working in the studio, guy
brought in his own drum kit. AS I'm wrapping some hardware
to silence its rattles he hits a rack tom right next to my
right ear. <ouch!!!>

GOod plan. Makes the parents feel better too when they
hear something they recognize <grin>.

Agreed. I imagine you've used the same principle in your
own work... and I've noticed the conductor of our community band
doing it as well. We play at a lot of nursing homes where the age
of the audience is fairly predictable & we use a book of folk songs,
hymns, light classics etc. in our warmup. Chances are the "older"
crowd will recognize at least one of any three numbers.... :-)

I do that often, try to give any audience a little something for everybody. Whether it's a prog rock band adapting a
familiar folk tune, or playing a prog number at the jazz
lounge piano gig, much to the chagrin of a restaurant
manager in NEw ORleans where I played their nice STeinway 6
days a week for awhile. ABout the time he and I went round
about that one I was talking to one of his waitstaff one day about some customers who sat for quite a long time without
waiter trying to sell them desserts or drinks. Mr. Manager
and I had a couple of discussions, and he found out that my
study in college was hotel restaurant management. HE asked
me why I didn't work in the industry, and I told him that
when I did I found out I didn't like 7 day weeks, sometimes
12 hour days. tHen I pointed it out to him as I'm selling
his cashier $100 worth of small bills one night during
Mardi Gras, which came from my tip jug <grin>.

ONe thing that helped me was the older kids at the
school for the blind, where ad hoc combos of musicians
were as ubiquitous as sandlot baseball among
neighborhood sighted kids.

<snip>

Ah... thanks for the clarification! I wasn't sure in
which order you attended which school because I've known various
people who for various reasons transferred to a more specialized environment later. At residential school you would indeed encounter
a variety of kids, and you'd also have an opportunity to get to know
them in a way you wouldn't if everyone was returning home at night.
One of the things I appreciate about the schools I went to is the socioeconomic mix I found there. Although I didn't have the same opportunity you did to join ad hoc combos, I learned to get along
with people from various walks of life... and I learned that they
tend to have different tastes in music. My only regret is that
figuring out what works for me took so many years because the
classical snobs & those of decidedly more plebian tastes occupied so
much bandwidth. :-/

Indeed. I found there was something from all of it I liked. YEs, being born blind my parents wanted me to get literacy
and other skills that I'd truly need my entire life, and did it, in spite of the system I hate to say. This is because
at the period of time I began my education there was a lot
of experimentation going on, not all of it for the better
for the children. That's another story, and another thread
if anybody's interested <grin>> A lot of opportunities to learn about various styles of music, and good ear training.

now in middle age I find myself reluctant often to explore
the unfamiliar, being just what I criticized my parents for
being in fact.

The upside of middle age is that we already know what
suits us & have the gumption to be who we are regardless of whether
or not others approve. The downside is that we can easily become
set in our ways to such an extent that we resist trying something
new. As I grow older, I find myself becoming more like my mother.
But FWIW I also understand more about what made her tick... [grin].

INdeed this is true. A little over a decade ago I remember
being invited by a dj friend over to audition some not
mainstream rock music he'd acquired from somewhere. A
friend of mine and I sat there and listened with him to one
or two cuts from each album, and after about an hour of
listening to our commentary he left the stereo silent,
looked at us and chided us about being hypercritical.


But then, a couple of weeks later, I came back to him and
told him about which groups he'd played that stuck in my
memory, one or two with the good old fashioned brain worm of the song he'd played that evening. YEs, I made notes of
which groups he'd played, and which songs.
And now, before the rain guess I'd better go outside and see if I can get my new (to me) van organized so that we can
load and unload Kathy's wheelchair easier. SHe's still got
to wait to carry her more comfortable one until the bench
seat/bed in the rear comes out and goes into storage, which
can't happen for a few days yet until a friend of mine meets me there to get the section of radio tower I'm giving him
out of there, so that the seat will fit <grin>.

Regards,
Richard
---
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hi again, Richard! This is a continuation of my previous message to you:

THat's one thing i enjoyed about living in NEw ORleans,
it forced me to come out of the cocoon of the familiar
a bit once e in awhile, try a food from somewhere else,
check out some music that I normally wouldn't encounter

That's something I enjoy about living in Vancouver & being with young
folks too. Eating Strange Foreign Foods (e.g. pizza & chow mein!) seemed quite
radical to many of our parents' generation when Dallas & I first tried it. Now
there's much more variety available & our daughter is taking it a step further.
I added a number of items to my repertoire after she blazed the trail.... :-))




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hello Ardith,
On Sun 2039-May-15 21:56, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:

THat's one thing i enjoyed about living in NEw ORleans,
it forced me to come out of the cocoon of the familiar
a bit once e in awhile, try a food from somewhere else,
check out some music that I normally wouldn't encounter

That's something I enjoy about living in Vancouver & being
with young folks too. Eating Strange Foreign Foods (e.g. pizza &
chow mein!) seemed quite radical to many of our parents' generation
when Dallas & I first tried it. Now there's much more variety
available & our daughter is taking it a step further. I added a
number of items to my repertoire after she blazed the trail....
:-))

I don't get exposed to enough new and different living out
here in the sticks, sorta miss it at times.
None of my neighbors are music listeners really it seems,
not like the city where just in the course of walking up the road you were exposed to a lot of it. SEems the lady who
lives up the hill from us has a son who's started to take up the drums, and he seems to practice a lot in his garage. IN fact, it was that which made me remember the joke "when does the drumming stop" I think I posted in this echo <grin>.

Regards,
Richard
---
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hi, Richard! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

Still remember working in the studio, guy brought in
his own drum kit. AS I'm wrapping some hardware to
silence its rattles he hits a rack tom right next to
my right ear. <ouch!!!>

To the ears & the brain focused on subtle nuances the effect is like that of dropping a load of bricks on a scale intended for measuring the weight of a SnailMail letter or a fistful of granola. Not everyone understands. :-(



[re the jazz lounge piano gig]

Mr. Manager and I had a couple of discussions, and he
found out that my study in college was hotel restaurant
management. HE asked me why I didn't work in the
industry, and I told him that when I did I found out I
didn't like 7 day weeks, sometimes 12 hour days. tHen
I pointed it out to him as I'm selling his cashier $100
worth of small bills one night during Mardi Gras, which
came from my tip jug <grin>.

Nice work, if you can get it! Your comments have brought up so many memories of various catering managers etc. I hardly know where to start. :-))



[re different styles of music]

I found there was something from all of it I liked.

Same here. I might even have realized I liked it sooner if I hadn't been surrounded by people who complained about how they'd had a miserable time at the symphony concert because Bobby Corno played a wrong note in the twelfth bar of the third movement & by people who apparently used AM radio to fill the empty space inside their heads. I couldn't relate to either or to the general music teacher I had in junior high school, the one who introduced her class to the MOONLIGHT SONATA with the expectation that we'd imagine a bunch of fairies dancing around & draw a picture. It wasn't until much later that I understood the technical distinctions between absolute music & program music. But I know now that I'm not alone in enjoying a sonata differently from a ballet.... :-)

being born blind my parents wanted me to get literacy
and other skills that I'd truly need my entire life,
and did it, in spite of the system I hate to say.

Seems to me you & your parents had very clear goals in mind. That's important when you're dealing with others who have different priorities and/or who think they know better regardless of what's going on in your life.... ;-)

at the period of time I began my education there was
a lot of experimentation going on, not all of it for
the better for the children. That's another story,
and another thread if anybody's interested <grin>>

Yeah. The idea of the least restrictive environment has its merits, but what often happens is that the school for the blind (e.g.) is closed & the support system we were assured of never materializes... or if it does it's one of the first things to be axed as soon as there's another budget cut. I could go on at length about that too. But IMHO there's more to be gained by putting the emphasis on where we've succeeded, despite forces beyond our control. :-)

A lot of opportunities to learn about various styles
of music, and good ear training.

I imagine as a blind person you would have had to develop your other senses more than sighted people generally do. When I was growing up it seemed to be taken for granted that Mother Nature endows blind people with supersonic hearing... but you worked at it, just as I did. By the time our daughter came along I was ready, willing, and able to learn that a 20% elevation in the rate of a child's breathing may... in the absence of any obvious reason... indicate s/he has a fever. To a musician a 20% increase in tempo is quite significant. To a lot of non-musicians, however, it seems like a black art even if they can see the wall clock nearby measuring the elapsed time in seconds... [wry grin].




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hello Ardith,


On Sat 2039-Jun-04 23:56, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:

AS I'm wrapping some hardware to
silence its rattles he hits a rack tom right next to
my right ear. <ouch!!!>

To the ears & the brain focused on subtle nuances the
effect is like that of dropping a load of bricks on a scale intended
for measuring the weight of a SnailMail letter or a fistful of
granola. Not everyone understands. :-(

<rotfl> indeed.

<snip again>

HE asked me why I didn't work in the
industry, and I told him that when I did I found out I
didn't like 7 day weeks, sometimes 12 hour days. tHen
I pointed it out to him as I'm selling his cashier $100
worth of small bills one night during Mardi Gras, which
came from my tip jug <grin>.

Nice work, if you can get it! Your comments have brought
up so many memories of various catering managers etc. I hardly know
where to start. :-))

INdeed, wish those kind of nights would have been all year
round, but Mardi Gras, etc. were sure great for the tip jug. We did a lot of restaurant dining whenever the tips were
good, because I didn't have to cook, and didn't feel like
it, nor did she. AT times during the day I'd do things such as pots of chili, or bean soup, etc. that we'd both eat
during the day though. I'd send part of it to work with her where we'd put it in the freezer over there and she could
nuke a dish for her lunch.
WHen the stretch between either of us getting a paycheck
became too long for the amount of dollars a few times I
offered up prayers for a busy night with a good jug,
especially when we started payng for Kathy's prescription
meds ourselves plus her cobra payment as she lost her job
with the good insurance coverage.

<snip>

Same here. I might even have realized I liked it sooner
if I hadn't been surrounded by people who complained about how
they'd had a miserable time at the symphony concert because Bobby
Corno played a wrong note in the twelfth bar of the third movement &
by people who apparently used AM radio to fill the empty space
inside their heads. I couldn't relate to either or to the general
music teacher I had in junior high school, the one who introduced
her class to the MOONLIGHT SONATA with the expectation that we'd
imagine a bunch of fairies dancing around & draw a picture. It
wasn't until much later that I understood the technical distinctions between absolute music & program music. But I know now that I'm not
alone in enjoying a sonata differently from a ballet.... :-)

INdeed, that's one of the big problems I had with the hip
hop stuff back when I'd have to handle a couple of them as
clients, I really couldn't appreciate the words, and the
person acting as producer didn't have interesting musical
ideas. I had more fun with the young kids in the
alternative band who wanted to experiment with strange
tonalities and things one normally wouldn't associate with
musical instruments, and those you would used in different
ways. Kathy arrived home from work one afternoon to find
one kid beating on some full paint cans with some
drumsticks, and other stuff going on. When we took a break
and decided to go back to the drawing board with an
auxillary weird percussion track Kathy showed the drummer of the group her African signal drums. HE was hooked, played
them with his hands and soft mallets. I was overall
dsiappointed with the track I got on them but the kids liked it. Those things being AFrican signal or war drums require
a whole lot of space to capture, and the stereo pair of
cardioid condensers I put over them acted more like close
microphones isntead of far field pickup, as those drums are
designed to be heard. I would have liked to record them in
a large space such as a gymnasium or something.
Even if the space was too big I could do things with movable partitions, etc. to build a microclimate for them
acoustically. <this should draw James out of lurk mode>.

Seems to me you & your parents had very clear goals in
mind. That's important when you're dealing with others who have
different priorities and/or who think they know better regardless of
what's going on in your life.... ;-)

THat it is, and their goal was to raise a self sufficient
citizen above all else.

a lot of experimentation going on, not all of it for
the better for the children. That's another story,
and another thread if anybody's interested <grin>>

Yeah. The idea of the least restrictive environment has
its merits, but what often happens is that the school for the blind
(e.g.) is closed & the support system we were assured of never materializes... or if it does it's one of the first things to be
axed as soon as there's another budget cut. I could go on at length
about that too. But IMHO there's more to be gained by putting the
emphasis on where we've succeeded, despite forces beyond our
control. :-)

Indeed, and at that time became the beginning of the big
slide down the slope of braille illiteracy, which is a
crying shame. THey were doing experiments with kids reading large print, even with desktop magnifiers, etc. I'm sure in Canada as well, from stats I"ve seen, but there is currently a worldwide braille literacy crisis among blind children.
YEs part of that is the mistaken belief that synthesized
speech, etc. can supplant braille. DUring the formative
years especially it's good for children to actually "see"
written language, even if they "see" it with their fingers,
and audio doesn't quite make the same connection to the
brain. Then consider yourself unable to make a quite note
with a pencil if you have no technology tools available.
That ability to be able to independently write something
down can be a killer in the work world.

<snip>

I imagine as a blind person you would have had to develop
your other senses more than sighted people generally do. When I was growing up it seemed to be taken for granted that Mother Nature
endows blind people with supersonic hearing... but you worked at it,
just as I did. By the time our daughter came along I was ready,
willing, and able to learn that a 20% elevation in the rate of a
child's breathing may... in the absence of any obvious reason...
indicate s/he has a fever. To a musician a 20% increase in tempo is
quite significant. To a lot of non-musicians, however, it seems like
a black art even if they can see the wall clock nearby measuring the elapsed time in seconds... [wry grin].

Indeed, it's learning to interpret what you hear. I can
teach an adult to interpret traffic sounds to determine when it's safe to cross
a busy intersection, i.e. when he has the signal, etc. But, ear training was something I just picked
up and did without realizing that's what I was doing. I
came to the realization as a young man I was doing a lot of
that when I read an article in some magazine which was
debunking the myth that perfect pitch can't be taught. I
had the luck of going to a school where every piano in every practice room was always properly tuned, because the school
taught piano tuning, and the instructor was a very expert
tuner and passed that on to his students. A few of those
students have made good livings tuning pianos, and a couple
still do today iirc.
I tell people who want their children to learn an instrument that being sure it's tuned to standard pitch at all times
when the child is playing it is important. tHis way, when
the kid plays the c below a 440 he hears that note, at the
proper frequency, and the two gel in his/her head.


Regards,
Richard
---
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hi, Richard! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

AFrican signal or war drums require a whole lot of
of space to capture [...] as those drums are designed
to be heard.

Ah... like the Scottish war pipes, I guess. :-)

<this should draw James out of lurk mode>.

How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm
After they've seen Paree? ♫

-- Joe Young & Sam M. Lewis, 1918

at that time became the beginning of the big slide down
the slope of braille illiteracy, which is a crying shame.
THey were doing experiments with kids reading large print,
even with desktop magnifiers, etc. I'm sure in Canada as
well, from stats I"ve seen, but there is currently a
worldwide braille literacy crisis among blind children.

I find the trend disturbing too. A family friend who graduates from elementary school this year has a rare syndrome which is causing deterioration in her vision. Years ago I had a student who was in a similar position... and who got Braille lessons from an itinerant teacher who came to the school. Our friend's mother wants her to learn Braille because she's reached a point where the printing has to be enlarged so much that even at elementary level a single word may not necessarily fit onto a single page. But it seems that everywhere Mom goes looking for help she's told "We don't do Braille any more"... (sigh).

part of that is the mistaken belief that synthesized
speech, etc. can supplant braille.

I don't believe it can... not yet, at any rate. I've heard what the synthesized speech on a GPS makes of "Lougheed Highway", "Shaughnessy Street", etc. And as one who's taught developmental reading I understand how important it is to be able to read words in groups & to notice subtleties in intonation.

DUring the formative years especially it's good for
children to actually "see" written language, even if
they "see" it with their fingers, and audio doesn't
quite make the same connection to the brain.

Makes sense to me. There is now an increasing body of evidence that human beings can "see" via the skin & I think our friend would take to Braille like a duck to water. She is very sensitive to touch, and she already knows a bit of sign language. As a teacher I generally found a multi-sensory approach most effective... i.e. the more connections one can establish the better. :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hello Ardith,

On Mon 2039-Jun-06 23:42, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:

AFrican signal or war drums require a whole lot of
of space to capture [...] as those drums are designed
to be heard.

Ah... like the Scottish war pipes, I guess. :-)

Indeed. These were wood, essentially big hollowed out logs, gazelle hide skins
on them. I wet them down once and put a
candle under them for a few hours to tighten 'em up, and
picked on Kathy for using them as decorative end tables for
her little pottery jungle animals. The big one was about 22 inch bass drum size, maybe just a bit smaller.
HEr ex husband acquired them while in the navy.

<this should draw James out of lurk mode>.

How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm
After they've seen Paree? ♫

<rotfl>
<snip>

THey were doing experiments with kids reading large print,
even with desktop magnifiers, etc. I'm sure in Canada as
well, from stats I've seen, but there is currently a
worldwide braille literacy crisis among blind children.

I find the trend disturbing too. A family friend who
graduates from elementary school this year has a rare syndrome which
is causing deterioration in her vision. Years ago I had a student
who was in a similar position... and who got Braille lessons from an itinerant teacher who came to the school. Our friend's mother wants
her to learn Braille because she's reached a point where the
printing has to be enlarged so much that even at elementary level a
single word may not necessarily fit onto a single page. But it
seems that everywhere Mom goes looking for help she's told "We don't
do Braille any more"... (sigh).

THere is a CAnadian FEderation of the Blind. Have her look
on www.nfb.org, there may be links. There waso might be
assistance for her via Canadian National Institute for the
Blind. she should pursue that. If nothing else, she can
use one of the email links of nfb.org to get to somebody who will help her with
networking with the proper folks up your
way.
It's important to get the little ones started with braille
asap in these situation, imnsho.

part of that is the mistaken belief that synthesized
speech, etc. can supplant braille.

I don't believe it can... not yet, at any rate. I've
heard what the synthesized speech on a GPS makes of "Lougheed
Highway", "Shaughnessy Street", etc. And as one who's taught
developmental reading I understand how important it is to be able to
read words in groups & to notice subtleties in intonation.

Indeed, for example, when using qedit I want my synthesizer
to give me punctuation spoken aloud because it may be
crucial to proper syntax for program code. IF I'm using it
to just read a textfile though I'll shut it off. still
speech doesn't have that immediate connection to the brain
braille has. I can speed read and still comprehend using
Braille, synthesized speech, I'm limited to the rate at
which I can understand spoken words, if not a bit slower.

Other disadvantage: WHen doing something such as sitting in a waiting room I don't want to be closed off from the rest
of the world as I would be with audio reading and
headphones, even one earbud is more cut off from the world
than I like to be.

Makes sense to me. There is now an increasing body of
evidence that human beings can "see" via the skin & I think our
friend would take to Braille like a duck to water. She is very
sensitive to touch, and she already knows a bit of sign language.
As a teacher I generally found a multi-sensory approach most
effective... i.e. the more connections one can establish the better.

Always. IN fact, some of my arguments in other activities
is that we're too busy teaching to standardized multiple
guess tests than we are putting folks' hands on what is to
be learned. I get a bit frustrated with that <g>.

Regards,
Richard
---
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hi, Richard! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

I don't get exposed to enough new and different living
out here in the sticks, sorta miss it at times.

I can relate. Years ago a friend of ours lived on a cattle ranch in the interior of BC. The grass-fed steak she served us was as smooth as butter ... I've never eaten so much at one sitting before or since. Her neighbour on the other side of a common wall was apparently addicted to C/W music, however, and we very soon tired of hearing identical bass lines repeated again & again. We also found when we visited the area a bit later that in at least one of the local eateries a Caesar salad = a lettuce & tomato salad with Caesar dressing. As an ex-waitress I realize how far this notion has deviated from the original concept. What you gain on the swings you may lose on the roundabouts.... :-)

None of my neighbors are music listeners really it seems,
not like the city where just in the course of walking up
the road you were exposed to a lot of it.

Yeah. The upside for me is hearing live music from the window of an apartment or from buskers on the street. The downside is the people who leave their car radios blaring away while they run errands somewhere else... (sigh).

SEems the lady who lives up the hill from us has a son
who's started to take up the drums, and he seems to
practice a lot in his garage. IN fact, it was that
which made me remember the joke "when does the drumming
stop" I think I posted in this echo <grin>.

If he wants to practice where he can get serious about whatever he's not yet able to do very well... with no concerns about who may be listening... I'd suggest distancing himself one way or another from the rest of the family. In some cases, however, would-be musicians are banished to the garage for good reason. When we heard a drummer practising in a nearby apartment a few months ago we sent him/her a message... via another tenant in the same building... to the effect that our community band needs more drummers. OTOH, during the year I was studying choral conducting & practising three instruments in addition to the clarinet the neighbours on both sides of us moved out. I'm quite sure you wouldn't want to hear me attempt to sing *or* to play the violin... [chuckle].




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

HEllo Ardith,

On Wed 2039-Jun-15 23:52, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:

I don't get exposed to enough new and different living
out here in the sticks, sorta miss it at times.

I can relate. Years ago a friend of ours lived on a
cattle ranch in the interior of BC. The grass-fed steak she served
us was as smooth as butter ... I've never eaten so much at one
sitting before or since. Her neighbour on the other side of a
common wall was apparently addicted to C/W music, however, and we
very soon tired of hearing identical bass lines repeated again &
again. We also found when we visited the area a bit later that in at
least one of the local eateries a Caesar salad = a lettuce & tomato
salad with Caesar dressing. As an ex-waitress I realize how far this
notion has deviated from the original concept. What you gain on the
swings you may lose on the roundabouts.... :-)

<rotfl> Can relate to both points. Kathy's daughter
listens to nothing but that ersatz new country, no swing, no waltz, rarely a shuffle, all a straight rock common time
signature <grumble>> <oh well>.

None of my neighbors are music listeners really it seems,
not like the city where just in the course of walking up
the road you were exposed to a lot of it.

Yeah. The upside for me is hearing live music from the
window of an apartment or from buskers on the street. The downside
is the people who leave their car radios blaring away while they run errands somewhere else... (sigh).

YEs there is that, but I got spoiled by NEw ORleans I guess, the buskers on the
corners downtown, the variety of
different forms of music one might hear just walking up the
street. tHe church a block from us when we lived center
city and managed the apartment complexes had a full blown
praise band, and they did their services earlier than the
church I attended, which meant that during their services
I'd end up doing the SUnday morning constitutional dog walk
about the time they really got into it. I really enjoyed
listening to their rhythm section, quite good, and I told
their pastor that on a couple of occasions. I'd end up
standing on that corner a lot waiting for my dog to do her
morning stuff so I could stoop and scoop while enjoying the
praise band. ONe hot bass player and a very good drummer!

SEems the lady who lives up the hill from us has a son
who's started to take up the drums, and he seems to
practice a lot in his garage. IN fact, it was that
which made me remember the joke "when does the drumming
stop" I think I posted in this echo <grin>.

If he wants to practice where he can get serious about
whatever he's not yet able to do very well... with no concerns about
who may be listening... I'd suggest distancing himself one way or
another from the rest of the family. In some cases, however,
would-be musicians are banished to the garage for good reason. When
we heard a drummer practising in a nearby apartment a few months ago
we sent him/her a message... via another tenant in the same
building... to the effect that our community band needs more
drummers. OTOH, during the year I was studying choral conducting & practising three instruments in addition to the clarinet the
neighbours on both sides of us moved out. I'm quite sure you
wouldn't want to hear me attempt to sing *or* to play the violin... [chuckle].

<rotfl> I keep telling Kathy she shouldn't sing, she
couldn't carry a tune in a tank truck to be honest, but
she's always singing to the dog. dOg thinks it sounds good
I guess.

sInce I wrote that message I talked to the young man a
couple of times, and suggested he spend a little more time
working on basics, and use a metronome, just to get
consistency. HE practices a lot of the flashy stuff, fancy
rolls etc. but wasn't practicing the basics. I also
suggested if not the metronome, get some headphones and his
favorite music and drum along. IN fact, one of the reasons
we ended up conversing was his mom suggested he talk to me
<g>.


Regards,
Richard
---
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hi, Richard! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

Our friend's mother wants her to learn Braille because
she's reached a point where the printing has to be
enlarged so much that even at elementary level a single
word may not necessarily fit onto a single page. But
it seems that everywhere Mom goes looking for help she's
told "We don't do Braille any more"... (sigh).

THere is a CAnadian FEderation of the Blind. Have her
look on www.nfb.org, there may be links.

Ah. Thankyou... I'll make sure she knows about it. :-)

There waso might be assistance for her via Canadian
National Institute for the Blind.

Yes, the family now has some materials & equipment on loan from the CNIB. Mom reported a couple of years ago, however, that the CNIB was not very co-operative at the time because her daughter wasn't blind enough yet! One of the problems we have encountered with organizations in general is the way they determine who qualifies for assistance. It's obvious to this girl's mother... and to a certain pair of old schoolteachers... that she's functionally blind & has been for awhile. I guess such organizations have to set limits somewhere. But Dallas & I have been in far too many other situations where it seems we're alone in recognizing what's happening & in making long-term educational plans.

It's important to get the little ones started with
braille asap in these situation, imnsho.

That's my take on it. Others disagree because they believe sighted or partially sighted folks try to cheat by using their eyes. When a kid can't locate white crockery on a black tablecloth without using her fingers, I don't imagine she can see tiny raised dots with no colour contrast at all! A person who can see well enough to read large print and/or who is satisfied with being read to by synthesized voices may not feel motivated to learn Braille, however ... from that standpoint you were fortunate in some ways. At the blind school you probably didn't have a choice & your classmates were learning it too. ;-)

News Update

In our friend's case we're not sure how much of the desire to learn Braille comes from Mom & how much comes from her. Maybe the folks at the CNIB had some reservations about that at first. Mom is not particularly assertive, but she's learning. In September her daughter will be entering high school... where she'll allegedly get Braille instruction from a woman who is blind. :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hello ARdith,

On Wed 2011-Jul-06 23:52, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:

<snip>

she's reached a point where the printing has to be
enlarged so much that even at elementary level a single
word may not necessarily fit onto a single page. But
it seems that everywhere Mom goes looking for help she's
told "We don't do Braille any more"... (sigh).

THere is a CAnadian FEderation of the Blind. Have her
look on www.nfb.org, there may be links.

Ah. Thankyou... I'll make sure she knows about it. :-)

YEs, especially in light of what you tell me later in your
message. The CAnadian FEderation may have advocacy help for parents as does NFB here in the states. Encourage her to
look there, and send emails to any/all email links begging
for help.

Yes, the family now has some materials & equipment on
loan from the CNIB. Mom reported a couple of years ago, however,
that the CNIB was not very co-operative at the time because her
daughter wasn't blind enough yet! One of the problems we have
encountered with organizations in general is the way they determine
who qualifies for assistance. It's obvious to this girl's mother...
and to a certain pair of old schoolteachers... that she's
functionally blind & has been for awhile. I guess such
organizations have to set limits somewhere. But Dallas & I have been
in far too many other situations where it seems we're alone in
recognizing what's happening & in making long-term educational
plans.

Indeed, that's a problem. Sometimes the teachers can be the best advocates for
the students, but sometimes not, which is why we have such programs here in the
states as the
individualized education plan, which is supposed to be
developed with professionals *and* parents, but first the
parents often have to be educated, both to understand
options and possible outcomes. Usually CNIB and other such
agencies have to go by a legal definition of blindness,
often here in the states defined as 20/200 in the better eye with correction, or a certain field of vision, can't recall
what those criteria are. Encourage the family to use the
nfb.org resource to make contact with our sister
organization in CAnada, and be that squeaky wheel.

It's important to get the little ones started with
braille asap in these situation, imnsho.

That's my take on it. Others disagree because they
believe sighted or partially sighted folks try to cheat by using
their eyes. When a kid can't locate white crockery on a black
tablecloth without using her fingers, I don't imagine she can see
tiny raised dots with no colour contrast at all! A person who can
see well enough to read large print and/or who is satisfied with
being read to by synthesized voices may not feel motivated to learn Braille, however ... from that standpoint you were fortunate in some
ways. At the blind school you probably didn't have a choice & your classmates were learning it too. ;-)

YEs, but back then there were the dreaded "talking books" on record, or reels of tape. Also, and maybe you don't want to get me started on this one, but the
"professionals in the
field" had this grand experiment called "sightsaving" going
on, which they started after WW II when the system was
receiving a large influx of blind children thanks to the
babies blinded by incubators, or Retrolentral fibroplasia
(spelling) <arrrgh> Where they discouraged the use of
braille and encouraged use of magnification even though it
would handicap a student later in life, because we couldn't
get enough braille conversant instructors into the
classroom. THey almost pigeonholed me into that one, but my mother fought them
successfully. <beware of experts>.

News Update

In our friend's case we're not sure how much of the
desire to learn Braille comes from Mom & how much comes from her.
Maybe the folks at the CNIB had some reservations about that at
first. Mom is not particularly assertive, but she's learning. In September her daughter will be entering high school... where she'll allegedly get Braille instruction from a woman who is blind. :-)

I hope so, and even if the daughter is reluctant the parents need to push. tHe
rest of her life depends upon her
developing literacy tools, and even if she mainly uses
braille to make notes for herself and to label household
items such as canned goods, medicines, etc. it's a tool she
can't afford to be without. YEs tools such as the handheld
reader in a cell phone developed by Ray Kurzweil and the NFB in partnership are
available, but there's nothing like being able to use the blind person's equivalent of a pencil to
make notes or label items that need labels, batteries not
required!



Regards,
Richard
... Braille: support true literacy for the blind.
---
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hi again, Richard! This is a continuation of my previous message to you:

[...] when using qedit I want my synthesizer to give
me punctuation spoken aloud because it may be crucial
to proper syntax for program code.

Uh-huh. Some folks say guys aren't detail oriented, but the guys I hang out with regard the punctuation of batch files as a serious matter. :-))

IF I'm using it to just read a textfile though I'll
shut it off.

Too bad you can't use Victor Borge's Phonetic Punctuation... [BEG].

still speech doesn't have that immediate connection
to the brain braille has.

Although I don't read Braille, I can relate as a clarinet player to the concept. Where speech does have an immediate connection to the brain it's probably not the literal meaning of the words which engages the audience. :-)

I can speed read and still comprehend using Braille,
synthesized speech, I'm limited to the rate at which
I can understand spoken words, if not a bit slower.

IOW, you find reading more efficient... just as I do. You can skim or scan the information in the owner's manual which you already know. You can slow down and/or re-read as necessary when you get to the more difficult bits. You can take a moment to stop & enjoy a particularly good turn of phrase or an amusing example of Chinglish. If you're reading for pleasure you can also use your imagination to understand how I'd read "Double, double, toil and trouble" to a group of fifteen-year-olds who considered me to be an old hag even when I wasn't much older than they were. Maybe it's type casting, but it works. ;-)

Other disadvantage: WHen doing something such as sitting
in a waiting room I don't want to be closed off from the
rest of the world as I would be with audio reading and
headphones, even one earbud is more cut off from the world
than I like to be.

Yes. When I'm sitting in a waiting room I play solitaire on one of Dallas's castoff pieces of hand-held electronic wizardry which is still usable as long as you don't mind too much if it reboots without warning & forgets all about what you've been doing for the last ten minutes. These games don't take up so much bandwidth that I'm not paying attention to my surroundings.... :-)

As a teacher I generally found a multi-sensory approach
most effective... i.e. the more connections one can
establish the better.

Always. IN fact, some of my arguments in other activities
is that we're too busy teaching to standardized multiple
guess tests than we are putting folks' hands on what is to
be learned. I get a bit frustrated with that <g>.

As do I. Some folks like standardized tests because they think the numbers are all that matters. Okay, so here is a question from a standardized oral test... "What are the colors of our country's flag?" The standardization was done in the US. Is it fair to expect elementary school students living in another country to figure out what was going on in the mind of the author(s) & respond accordingly?? I often felt similarly betrayed when I was a kid. Tell me what you see... I'll take the flak if it messes up the standardization! As I'm sure you realize, I'm not singling out Americans. What bothers me is that kids are rewarded for memorizing textbook answers & punished for noticing when the textbook disagrees with their own observations. I feel for the latter. I found myself under a lot of pressure as a teacher, however, to fill up my mark books with numbers. It didn't seem to matter to the folks who were evaluating me what the numbers really meant. Encouraging kids to think for themselves is much more challenging & the assignments take longer to mark. If others prefer the easy way out sometimes I can well understand the temptation... [wry grin].




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

HEllo Ardith,

On Thu 2011-Jul-14 23:42, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:

[...] when using qedit I want my synthesizer to give
me punctuation spoken aloud because it may be crucial
to proper syntax for program code.

Uh-huh. Some folks say guys aren't detail oriented, but
the guys I hang out with regard the punctuation of batch files as a
serious matter. :-))

YEp, I've had that one reach out and bite me.

IF I'm using it to just read a textfile though I'll
shut it off.

Too bad you can't use Victor Borge's Phonetic
Punctuation... [BEG].

<hmmm> I should know of what you speak of, but it's been
one of those days <g>.

<snip>

Although I don't read Braille, I can relate as a clarinet
player to the concept. Where speech does have an immediate
connection to the brain it's probably not the literal meaning of the
words which engages the audience. :-)

YEah that sound about right. I just retain better actually
reading it. I guess folks who've listened to nothing but
audiobooks can develop those pathways to long term memory
better, but my mother discouraged the reading of audio books on lp record when I was small. ESpecially for leisure
reading when I'd started to go to school at home, since some of my textbooks were on tape, and others she had to read
aloud to me she was glad she didn't have to push me to do my leisure reading in
braille. But then, braille although
bulky was portable, playback equipment of that day required
the tether to the wall, whereas braille went mobile easy.

I can speed read and still comprehend using Braille,
synthesized speech, I'm limited to the rate at which
I can understand spoken words, if not a bit slower.

IOW, you find reading more efficient... just as I do.
You can skim or scan the information in the owner's manual which you already know. You can slow down and/or re-read as necessary when
you get to the more difficult bits. You can take a moment to stop &
enjoy a particularly good turn of phrase or an amusing example of Chinglish. If you're reading for pleasure you can also use your imagination to understand how I'd read "Double, double, toil and
trouble" to a group of fifteen-year-olds who considered me to be an
old hag even when I wasn't much older than they were. Maybe it's
type casting, but it works. ;-)

<rotfl> That's what I miss the most, the ability to skim
with synthesized speech or recorded material. wHen one
works with a live reader for awhile the two can develop a
teamwork which can sort of approximate the skimming but it's hard to develop that sort of rapport with a reader. Kathy
and I have been together about a decade and a half and she's just now starting to learn how to work with me on that.
Although she can interpret a simple schematic diagram it's
hard for her to describe what she sees. yEs verbal
schematics are possible. I could show you some examples
<grin>.

Yes. When I'm sitting in a waiting room I play solitaire
on one of Dallas's castoff pieces of hand-held electronic wizardry
which is still usable as long as you don't mind too much if it
reboots without warning & forgets all about what you've been doing
for the last ten minutes. These games don't take up so much
bandwidth that I'm not paying attention to my surroundings.... :-)

RIght, I find that's true with braille. tHe only downside
is all the gawkers that would come by and intrude, where
they wouldn't even dream of intruding on the privacy of a
sighted person with face buried in a newspaper. I've gone
out to sit outside, or in our van just to get away from
them, apparently going out to smoke, even if I don't desire
to light up.

As a teacher I generally found a multi-sensory approach
most effective... i.e. the more connections one can
establish the better.

Always. IN fact, some of my arguments in other activities
is that we're too busy teaching to standardized multiple
guess tests than we are putting folks' hands on what is to
be learned. I get a bit frustrated with that <g>.

As do I. Some folks like standardized tests because they
think the numbers are all that matters. Okay, so here is a question
from a standardized oral test... "What are the colors of our
country's flag?" The standardization was done in the US. Is it
fair to expect elementary school students living in another country
to figure out what was going on in the mind of the author(s) &
respond accordingly?? I often felt similarly betrayed when I was a
kid. Tell me what you see... I'll take the flak if it messes up the standardization! As I'm sure you realize, I'm not singling out
Americans. What bothers me is that kids are rewarded for memorizing textbook answers & punished for noticing when the textbook disagrees
with their own observations. I feel for the latter. I found myself
under a lot of pressure as a teacher, however, to fill up my mark
books with numbers. It didn't seem to matter to the folks who were evaluating me what the numbers really meant. Encouraging kids to
think for themselves is much more challenging & the assignments take
longer to mark. If others prefer the easy way out sometimes I can
well understand the temptation... [wry grin].

YEah it's just as bad with adult education in other
endeavors these days. tHey can learn the jargon associated
with an endeavor, although true understanding isn't achieved by the rote memorization necessary for them to quickly get a passing mark on one of these multiple choice type tests. IT gets a bit frustrating. LIked your example of the flag.
When I read it I was wondering whose flag <g>.




Regards,
Richard
---
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hi, Richard! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

Sometimes the teachers can be the best advocates for
the students, but sometimes not, which is why we have
such programs here in the states as the individualized
education plan,

We have IEP's here too. As a teacher, I wrote some of them.... ;-)

which is supposed to be developed with professionals *and*
parents, but first the parents often have to be educated,
both to understand options and possible outcomes.

Yes. The professionals often need to be educated too, however. I'm reminded here of Nora's kindergarten teacher... a woman with whom all three of us got along famously. When she told Dallas & me "I don't know anything about [various medical issues pertaining to Nora]" I chuckled & replied "I know that stuff. You're the expert in teaching kindergarten. So... we'll put our heads together!" As a former teacher & as a parent, I expect to work on a collegial basis with professionals. AFAIC the real gems actually appreciate that. :-))

Usually CNIB and other such agencies have to go by a legal
definition of blindness, often here in the states defined
as 20/200 in the better eye with correction,

That's what I was taught at university many years ago. Although the textbook is quite outdated now, I think these numbers are still valid.... :-)

or a certain field of vision, can't recall what those
criteria are.

Tunnel vision, yeah. I don't recall the details either.... :-)

A person who can see well enough to read large print
and/or who is satisfied with being read to by synthesized
voices may not feel motivated to learn Braille, however
... from that standpoint you were fortunate in some ways.
At the blind school you probably didn't have a choice &
your classmates were learning it too. ;-)

YEs, but back then there were the dreaded "talking books"
on record, or reels of tape.

I remember those. I used them on occasion when I wanted my students to hear how English was pronounced a millenium ago. But in my experience kids generally prefer to have some opportunity to interact with the reader.... :-)

Also, and maybe you don't want to get me started on
this one, but the "professionals in the field" had
this grand experiment called "sightsaving" going on,
which they started after WW II when the system was
receiving a large influx of blind children thanks to
the babies blinded by incubators,

Hmm. I was dimly aware of the theory as one of those 1950's "use it or lose it" ideas which probably did more harm than good to me & others I know but I hadn't yet connected the dots. The timing is interesting... [wry grin].

or Retrolentral fibroplasia (spelling) <arrrgh>

No problem... you added one letter to a suffix, that's all. My best girl friend in high school had twin brothers with this condition. Retrolental fibroplasia is the abnormal proliferation of fibrous tissue behind the lens of the eye... most common when incubators were first used & the ideal quantity of oxygen was yet to be determined. I didn't realize the "sightsaving" stuff had been going on for such a long time, however. One of my friend's brothers, who AFAIK was totally blind, went to the school for the blind when there was still such a thing here. I do remember the panic my older colleagues expressed when they were required to teach kids with special needs. They'd been trained in a lockstep era where the only alternatives were to shape up or ship out... where left-handedness, introversion etc. were regarded as perversities which must be eliminated... and thus the learning curve in many cases was fairly steep. :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

HEllo Ardith,

On Mon 2011-Jul-25 13:20, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:

Sometimes the teachers can be the best advocates for
the students, but sometimes not, which is why we have
such programs here in the states as the individualized
education plan,

We have IEP's here too. As a teacher, I wrote some of
them.... ;-)

<grin> THought you might. oUr systems are similar in many
ways I understand <g>.

which is supposed to be developed with professionals *and*
parents, but first the parents often have to be educated,
both to understand options and possible outcomes.

Yes. The professionals often need to be educated too,
however. I'm reminded here of Nora's kindergarten teacher... a
woman with whom all three of us got along famously. When she told
Dallas & me "I don't know anything about [various medical issues
pertaining to Nora]" I chuckled & replied "I know that stuff.
You're the expert in teaching kindergarten. So... we'll put our
heads together!" As a former teacher & as a parent, I expect to
work on a collegial basis with professionals. AFAIC the real gems
actually appreciate that. :-))

THose who really have a grasp of what's going on wish for
that sort of relationship with all the parents of their
students <g.>


<snip>

A person who can see well enough to read large print
and/or who is satisfied with being read to by synthesized
voices may not feel motivated to learn Braille, however
... from that standpoint you were fortunate in some ways.
At the blind school you probably didn't have a choice &
your classmates were learning it too. ;-)

YEs, but back then there were the dreaded "talking books"
on record, or reels of tape.

I remember those. I used them on occasion when I wanted
my students to hear how English was pronounced a millenium ago. But
in my experience kids generally prefer to have some opportunity to
interact with the reader.... :-)

YEp, and it's difficult if at the learning stage you use
recorded books and readers to learn much about your written
language.

Also, and maybe you don't want to get me started on
this one, but the "professionals in the field" had
this grand experiment called "sightsaving" going on,
which they started after WW II when the system was
receiving a large influx of blind children thanks to
the babies blinded by incubators,

Hmm. I was dimly aware of the theory as one of those
1950's "use it or lose it" ideas which probably did more harm than
good to me & others I know but I hadn't yet connected the dots. The
timing is interesting... [wry grin].

INdeed, it had its root in implementation in imho a bit of
laziness. WE don't have enough braille teachers to meet the needs of the system, so we'll do this. tHe theory ended up
further handicapping a generation of blind youth, and that
slide down the slippery slope continues to this day. US
blind activis types have been sounding the alarm on the
braille literacy crisis now for a generation.

or Retrolentral fibroplasia (spelling) <arrrgh>

No problem... you added one letter to a suffix, that's
all. My best girl friend in high school had twin brothers with this condition. Retrolental fibroplasia is the abnormal proliferation of fibrous tissue behind the lens of the eye... most common when
incubators were first used & the ideal quantity of oxygen was yet to
be determined. I didn't realize the "sightsaving" stuff had been
going on for such a long time, however. One of my friend's
brothers, who AFAIK was totally blind, went to the school for the
blind when there was still such a thing here. I do remember the
panic my older colleagues expressed when they were required to teach
kids with special needs. They'd been trained in a lockstep era
where the only alternatives were to shape up or ship out... where left-handedness, introversion etc. were regarded as perversities
which must be eliminated... and thus the learning curve in many
cases was fairly steep. :-)

IT still is. WE reject what we don't understand, or try to
ignore it altogether. THey started me in that "Sightsaver"
thing when I first started school, but my mother wasn't
going to have any of that nonsense. SUch things have caused me over the years to develop a bit of schepticism toward any professional that comes to me with an attitude of "trust me, I know what's best for you" and won't discuss his/her intended course of action in much more detail than that.


Regards,
Richard
---
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hi again, Richard! This is a continuation of my previous message to you:

they discouraged the use of braille and encouraged
use of magnification even though it would handicap a
student later in life, because we couldn't get enough
braille conversant instructors into the classroom.

... and no doubt they'd convinced themselves that they were doing it solely for the benefit of the students. In Canada, we tend to adopt new ideas long after the Americans and/or the Brits have already tried them & found they don't work as advertised... my time line may be somewhat different from yours. But luckily for me, my grade two teacher kept saying "Sound it out!" in an era when basal readers (e.g. Dick & Jane) were in vogue & the study of phonics was thought to be outdated. You may not want to get me started on *that*.... ;-)

THey almost pigeonholed me into that one, but my mother
fought them successfully. <beware of experts>.

As a mother, I can relate. I admire this gal already! Mothers have unique insights WRT the offspring of their womb. And parents of either gender may also have the marginally insane devotion which enabled me, for example, to learn everything you probably never wanted to hear about leukemia & explain it to our GP although I was not a brilliant student in high school biology class. The experts know stuff I don't know... but I know my kid, and if necessary I'd move mountains for her. Dissecting clams was a lot less inspiring AFAIC. :-)

OTOH the experts don't always know as much as they'd like to believe they do. When Nora was in grade one & had recently finished her treatment for leukemia, she couldn't always muster the energy to walk a quarter of a mile to school. Sometimes I dragged her... sometimes I carried her. The principal of the school got bent out of shape because the mother of some other kid, who was in grade five & had very different issues to deal with, had been seen carrying her son up & down the stairs. He felt he had to pacify certain members of the staff who were afraid they'd be expected to do the same. Within a year I told Nora she'd exceeded my load limit & she'd have to walk now. By then she could do it. My long term goal was to help her reach a point where she could get to where she wanted to go independently of me. I realized that neither I nor the old clunker I was driving would last forever. The principal's solution was to urge me to drive Nora to school, which I'd thus far refused to do. He thought she'd "fit in" that way... but he'd never actually seen my car! It would have stuck out like a sore thumb amidst the gaggle of spiffy new SUV's which we saw parked near the entrance we used because it was closest to home... (sigh).

I respect people who, like the aforementioned kindergarten teacher & GP, are willing to admit to what they don't know. One of the great lessons my parents taught me is that you don't have to know everything if you know how to look it up or you know who to ask. And nowadays, when I ask how to get from A to B in a wheelchair, I have more confidence in those who say "I'm not sure... let me go take a look!" than in those who assure me it won't be any problem at all. Chances are the latter have overlooked some important detail(s).... ;-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hello Ardith,

On Sat 2011-Aug-06 22:56, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:

they discouraged the use of braille and encouraged
use of magnification even though it would handicap a
student later in life, because we couldn't get enough
braille conversant instructors into the classroom.

... and no doubt they'd convinced themselves that they
were doing it solely for the benefit of the students. In Canada, we
tend to adopt new ideas long after the Americans and/or the Brits
have already tried them & found they don't work as advertised... my
time line may be somewhat different from yours. But luckily for me,
my grade two teacher kept saying "Sound it out!" in an era when
basal readers (e.g. Dick & Jane) were in vogue & the study of
phonics was thought to be outdated. You may not want to get me
started on *that*.... ;-)

Learned that way, sound the word out, etc. ONce my mother
won the braille fight I took off with it.


<snip>

As a mother, I can relate. I admire this gal already!
Mothers have unique insights WRT the offspring of their womb. And
parents of either gender may also have the marginally insane
devotion which enabled me, for example, to learn everything you
probably never wanted to hear about leukemia & explain it to our GP although I was not a brilliant student in high school biology class.
The experts know stuff I don't know... but I know my kid, and if
necessary I'd move mountains for her. Dissecting clams was a lot
less inspiring AFAIC. :-)

INdeed, mothers, and family can often tell you things you
might want to know to help you decide on a course of action, whether you be teacher or doctor. Kathy's doctor, (current
version) seems to be much better about this.

OTOH the experts don't always know as much as they'd like
to believe they do. When Nora was in grade one & had recently
finished her treatment for leukemia, she couldn't always muster the
energy to walk a quarter of a mile to school. Sometimes I dragged
her... sometimes I carried her. The principal of the school got
bent out of shape because the mother of some other kid, who was in
grade five & had very different issues to deal with, had been seen
carrying her son up & down the stairs. He felt he had to pacify
certain members of the staff who were afraid they'd be expected to
do the same. Within a year I told Nora she'd exceeded my load limit
& she'd have to walk now. By then she could do it. My long term
goal was to help her reach a point where she could get to where she
wanted to go independently of me. I realized that neither I nor the
old clunker I was driving would last forever.

<snip>
That's the attitude to take with our children, and I argue
for that approach all the time with people. Having that
argument with Kathy and her daughter about daughter's eldest daughter. YOu have to give them opportunities to take
responsibility if you want them to develop the ability to do so. Kathy and her
daughter are both sheltering protecting
people if given the choice, and I'm arguing they're
overprotecting teenage girl instead of giving her
information which she can use along with her intellect to
make responsible intelligent choices.
<snip>

I respect people who, like the aforementioned kindergarten teacher & GP, are willing to admit to what they don't know. One of
the great lessons my parents taught me is that you don't have to
know everything if you know how to look it up or you know who to
ask. And nowadays, when I ask how to get from A to B in a
wheelchair, I have more confidence in those who say "I'm not sure...
let me go take a look!" than in those who assure me it won't be any
problem at all. Chances are the latter have overlooked some
important detail(s).... ;-)

Boy do I know that feeling with my lady in a wheelchair.
DOn't get me started on "accessible" for people in
wheelchairs. I still think every architect designing
"handicapped accessible" facilities should spend some time
during his/her course of study strapped in a wheelchair, all day, every day. Go through the cafeteria line, prepare
dinner, go to class, go here, go there. THen consider such
things as the paper towel dispenser that is at a nice low
height but is set too far back for the wheelchair user to
get to, or the double doors that work wrong for the person
in the wheelchair to independently navigate them. I've
entered more ladies' rooms to rescue Kathy from a situation
in public places than I cleaned when I was a janitor for
awhile <g>.

IN fact, that's one of next week's projects, a stop to price materials, at present she makes it to the van on her walker
from the front door, but that's even becoming more difficult for her, and a ramp is in her near future. I've seen some
of the fly by the light of the moon construction of
wheelchair ramps common around here, and would rather build
my own and hire a couple flunkies for the day than hire one
of them to do it.

Regards,
Richard
---
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hi yet again, Richard! This is the last installment in the current series:

[re learning Braille]

even if the daughter is reluctant the parents need to
push. tHe rest of her life depends upon her developing
literacy tools,

That's my take on it.... :-)

and even if she mainly uses braille to make notes for
herself and to label household items such as canned
goods, medicines, etc. it's a tool she can't afford to
be without.

The more you can do for yourself, the less you're dependent on other people... who may or may not have a clue what's going on in your life... to do it for you. You've captured my philosophy of education in a nutshell.... :-)

YEs tools such as the handheld reader in a cell phone
developed by Ray Kurzweil and the NFB in partnership
are available,

All sorts of wonderful things are available nowadays... for a price! If you're under eighteen there are various charities who may help finance such things. If you're no longer so cute & appealing you may find yourself on your own. Either way, the ability to read Braille does give you more options. :-)

but there's nothing like being able to use the blind
person's equivalent of a pencil to make notes or label
items that need labels, batteries not required!

Yes. As I grow older I find myself developing more appreciation for what my ancestors did. My parents were reducing, re-using, and recycling long before these terms were in fashion. I'm glad I acquired such down-home skills as making compost & cooking from scratch with minimal equipment. And I'm glad things were built to last years ago because I don't enjoy shopping... unless I luck into situations where one person's trash may be another's treasure. :-))




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

HI again Ardith,

On Wed 2011-Aug-24 23:52, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:

even if the daughter is reluctant the parents need to
push. The rest of her life depends upon her developing
literacy tools,

That's my take on it.... :-)

My daughter is going through this right now, in fact I
thought about this conversation last week when she emailed
me, she's starting to cope with not having enough vision to
read anymore. HEr uncle (mom's brother who is also blind)
got her set up with screen access using speech for her pc.
She'd thought she had braille down good enough, and did, for writing it, but she used her eyes to read it. NOw she's
having to adapt to that.

<snip>

The more you can do for yourself, the less you're
dependent on other people... who may or may not have a clue what's
going on in your life... to do it for you. You've captured my
philosophy of education in a nutshell.... :-)

INdeed, I've often found my best teachers in life are those
who give me tools I can use for myself.

YEs tools such as the handheld reader in a cell phone
developed by Ray Kurzweil and the NFB in partnership
are available,

All sorts of wonderful things are available nowadays...
for a price! If you're under eighteen there are various charities
who may help finance such things. If you're no longer so cute &
appealing you may find yourself on your own. Either way, the
ability to read Braille does give you more options. :-)

INdeed it does, and keeping up with the technology does get
expensive.

but there's nothing like being able to use the blind
person's equivalent of a pencil to make notes or label
items that need labels, batteries not required!

Yes. As I grow older I find myself developing more
appreciation for what my ancestors did. My parents were reducing, re-using, and recycling long before these terms were in fashion.
I'm glad I acquired such down-home skills as making compost &
cooking from scratch with minimal equipment. And I'm glad things
were built to last years ago because I don't enjoy shopping...
unless I luck into situations where one person's trash may be
another's treasure. :-))

I'm much the same way. We eat little that comes from a can
and none of the usual frozen dinner type things. WE don't
garden as much as we should, I suppose we could occupy a bit of the backyard here for gardening, but Kathy's not able
really, but I'm sure thinking about it if we're here next
spring. I'm also thinking about finding a buddy that likes
to go deer hunting this fall, buying him a deer tag and
splitting the one he hunts for me with him. I've got the
chest freezer, may as well put some meat in it this fall for us to eat <g>. I don't have the tools to hunt myself
anymore, and no inclination to go tramping in the woods.

Since my braille embosser for the computer went down though
I've sure been suing that blind man's pencil a lot,
especially for things like these hurricanes where I need the current info available for shifts on the air. Getting my
braille shorthand down again, punching away while the
computer reads the data to me <g>.


Regards,
Richard
---
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hi, Richard! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

We have IEP's here too. As a teacher, I wrote some of
them.... ;-)

<grin> THought you might. oUr systems are similar in
many ways I understand <g>.

Uh-huh. Folks in Canada as well as the US also have the Vietnam war vets to thank for a bit of consciousness-raising about wheelchair access. :-)

As a former teacher & as a parent, I expect to work on a
collegial basis with professionals. AFAIC the real gems
actually appreciate that. :-))

THose who really have a grasp of what's going on wish for
that sort of relationship with all the parents of their
students <g.>

Those who really have a grasp of what's going on know how much there is still to be learned, when any one answer may raise ten more questions. :-)



[re "talking books"]

in my experience kids generally prefer to have some
opportunity to interact with the reader.... :-)

YEp, and it's difficult if at the learning stage you
use recorded books and readers to learn much about
your written language.

I imagine it would be! Even now, I read to our young adult daughter on occasion. It helps that (unlike the majority of other students I've known) she'll ask about words she doesn't understand. If she doesn't ask directly, I can tell by her raised eyebrows or by a slight shift in her body position that she's puzzled about something. I know she's paying attention because she will correct me if I've misread a word or she'll insist I look it up if she doesn't approve of my explanation. For a teacher, it can't get much better than this. For a student, it's important to get feedback from the opposite direction too. Who else would notice & chuckle openly in delight, after all these years, when their kid uses a new word?? AFAIC a recording is no serious competition. ;-)

tHe theory ended up further handicapping a generation
of blind youth, and that slide down the slippery slope
continues to this day.

I'm seeing much the same phenomenon WRT English grammar. During the 1960's some influential linguists felt dictionaries should be descriptive, not prescriptive... and sought to improve on ye olde parts of speech etc. The net result seems to be that very few people can write a coherent sentence nowadays unless they are in the "fifty-five plus" age category or learning English as a second language. Parents thanked me for teaching traditional grammar during a time when other folks supported the idea that whatever the majority of kids in grade eight said was okay. Although hindsight may be 20/20, there is no going back because the younger generation of teachers never learned this stuff. :-(

WE reject what we don't understand, or try to ignore it
altogether. THey started me in that "Sightsaver" thing
when I first started school, but my mother wasn't going
to have any of that nonsense.

And since her brother was blind, she knew whereof she spoke.... :-)

SUch things have caused me over the years to develop a
bit of schepticism toward any professional that comes to
me with an attitude of "trust me, I know what's best for
you" and won't discuss his/her intended course of action
in much more detail than that.

Their preferred learning style is different from yours & mine. They like to be told what to do, where you & I thrive on analyzing individual needs and doing whatever is necessary to maximize somebody's potential. Whether the individual in question is a performer who wants you to make them sound good or a kid who can't relate to standard teaching methods we're in our element. :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hello Ardith,

On Tue 2011-Sep-06 23:12, Ardith Hinton (1:153/716) wrote to Richard Webb:

Uh-huh. Folks in Canada as well as the US also have the
Vietnam war vets to thank for a bit of consciousness-raising about wheelchair access. :-)

YEp, and it gets better. I still think any architect
designing such spaces should spend some time actually living in one though.

As a former teacher & as a parent, I expect to work on a
collegial basis with professionals. AFAIC the real gems
actually appreciate that. :-))

YEp, same with my profession. The "talent" that gets it
understands that we're partners in presenting them to the
audience. Funny thing, but they're usually the same as
those who build careers that last more than a year or two.

THose who really have a grasp of what's going on wish for
that sort of relationship with all the parents of their
students <g.>

Those who really have a grasp of what's going on know how
much there is still to be learned, when any one answer may raise ten
more questions. :-)

That's always the way, answers beget more questions, at
least if you're truly thinking.

<snip>

YEp, and it's difficult if at the learning stage you
use recorded books and readers to learn much about
your written language.

I imagine it would be! Even now, I read to our young
adult daughter on occasion. It helps that (unlike the majority of
other students I've known) she'll ask about words she doesn't
understand. If she doesn't ask directly, I can tell by her raised
eyebrows or by a slight shift in her body position that she's
puzzled about something. I know she's paying attention because she
will correct me if I've misread a word or she'll insist I look it up
if she doesn't approve of my explanation. For a teacher, it can't
get much better than this. For a student, it's important to get
feedback from the opposite direction too. Who else would notice &
chuckle openly in delight, after all these years, when their kid
uses a new word?? AFAIC a recording is no serious competition. ;-)

EVery teacher I've ever interacted with who really gets it
lives for those moments.

tHe theory ended up further handicapping a generation
of blind youth, and that slide down the slippery slope
continues to this day.

I'm seeing much the same phenomenon WRT English grammar.
During the 1960's some influential linguists felt dictionaries
should be descriptive, not prescriptive... and sought to improve on
ye olde parts of speech etc. The net result seems to be that very
few people can write a coherent sentence nowadays unless they are in
the "fifty-five plus" age category or learning English as a second language. Parents thanked me for teaching traditional grammar
during a time when other folks supported the idea that whatever the majority of kids in grade eight said was okay. Although hindsight
may be 20/20, there is no going back because the younger generation
of teachers never learned this stuff. :-(

It was deemed unimportant. YEs, I'm sloppy in echomail or
newsgroup posting, but if it's for business, or for long
term public consumption I make an effort.

WE reject what we don't understand, or try to ignore it
altogether. THey started me in that "Sightsaver" thing
when I first started school, but my mother wasn't going
to have any of that nonsense.

And since her brother was blind, she knew whereof she
spoke.... :-)

Eh? Missed that one somewhere.

SUch things have caused me over the years to develop a
bit of schepticism toward any professional that comes to
me with an attitude of "trust me, I know what's best for
you" and won't discuss his/her intended course of action
in much more detail than that.

Their preferred learning style is different from yours &
mine. They like to be told what to do, where you & I thrive on
analyzing individual needs and doing whatever is necessary to
maximize somebody's potential. Whether the individual in question
is a performer who wants you to make them sound good or a kid who
can't relate to standard teaching methods we're in our element. :-)

Has to be that way. ONe size doesn't fit all. What may
work for you might not work for me. You have to admit it's
a little harder to do though. IF you do it by rote, like
you were taught, so you teach others it's easy, just follow
the formula. But, otoh if you want to try to reach the
student, or accomodate the performer in a different way
you've got to be thinking, you've got to fold in past
experiences and take your cues from what worked well in
similar situations, or ask a colleague who might know.
There are two problems with that, first, you have to do a
bit of cogitating, and then <gasp> you have to admit you
don't know everything to a colleague. That's the tough one
right there.


Regards,
Richard
---
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Ardith,

Time Signatures -- trivial details often irrelevant to drummers

Or like the T-shirt with funky time signatures...noting "these are
difficult times". <G>

Daryl

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Ardith,

Uh-huh. Rap isn't my cup of tea either.... :-)

Or as Shotgun Red noted "Want to know what I think of Rap?? Put a C in
front of it!!". To me, Rap is for those who never learned how to sing...especially since most I hear is loaded with vulgar language.

Daryl

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