• california propositions,

    From BOB KLAHN@1:123/140 to BOB ACKLEY on Sat Nov 13 14:39:50 2010

    Or any public office for that matter. :) It has to be ego driven,
    IMO. Or, as in most cases, a chance to make really big bucks
    after your term is up.

    "Serving the Public" is seldom the case. :)

    "In any bureaucracy, 'civil servant' is equivalent in
    meaning to 'civil master.'" - Robert A Heinlein, about half
    a century ago.

    Heinlein was wrong about a lot of things. Wrote good SF, but his
    politics were a bit screwed up.

    Only to you collectivists. Heinlein was a big believer in
    freedom and INDIVIDUAL liberty. *You* are not.

    That comes under the heading of, "A mile wide but an inch deep."

    It just demonstrates you know nothing about what I believe in.

    Pro-lifers believe in a lot of restrictions on individual
    freedom. Which means you need to be a democrat.

    Anti-gays don't have much belief in individual freedom at all.

    I believe in freedom of religion, and freedom from religion,
    which puts me one freedom up on the right.

    I believe in freedom of speech, even when I don't agree with
    what is said, which puts me one freedom up on the Tea Party.

    I believe in freedom to live your own life as long at you don't
    harm others. That puts me one freedom up on most people.

    I also believe in a responsibility as part of our social
    structure, to contribute to maintaining our social structure.
    That seems so obvious it should not require defending.

    I believe the freedom to keep and bear arms requires the
    obligation to learn to do so responsibly. Which puts me on two
    sides of a freedom, depending on which side you stand on.

    If Heinlein really believed in what he appeared to, he could
    stand by and watch a child die and not believe anyone was
    obligated to do anything.

    Libertarianism doesn't seem to believe in much of anything.

    Libertarians seem to believe in whatever is convenient for them.

    No thanks, I prefer a moral philosophy based on some actual
    principles.

    And any moral philosophy that doesn't apply obligations to
    others is not a moral philosophy likely to be successful in the
    real world.

    See the tagline.


    BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

    ... It ain't what ya don't know, but what you know that aint so that'l hurt ya. --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
    * Origin: Doc's Place BBS Fido Since 1991 docsplace.tzo.com (1:123/140)
  • From John Massey@1:123/789 to BOB KLAHN on Sat Nov 13 16:42:35 2010
    On 11/13/2010 1:39 PM, BOB KLAHN -> BOB ACKLEY wrote:
    I believe in freedom of speech, even when I don't agree with
    what is said, which puts me one freedom up on the Tea Party.

    Then why do you ban people from your echos for what they say?

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101027
    * Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)
  • From Richard Webb@1:116/901 to BOB KLAHN on Sat Nov 13 22:23:53 2010
    HEllo Bob,

    On Sat 2038-Nov-13 14:39, BOB KLAHN (1:123/140) wrote to BOB ACKLEY:

    <big snip>

    Pro-lifers believe in a lot of restrictions on individual
    freedom. Which means you need to be a democrat.

    Anti-gays don't have much belief in individual freedom at all.

    And usually they're the same, in most cases. OFten one is
    the other I find.

    I believe in freedom of religion, and freedom from religion, which
    puts me one freedom up on the right.

    AS well here.

    I believe in freedom of speech, even when I don't agree with what
    is said, which puts me one freedom up on the Tea Party.

    <rotfl!>

    I believe in freedom to live your own life as long at you don't
    harm others. That puts me one freedom up on most people.

    AS do many of us who are truly libertarians.
    LIke you I'm also a firm believer that the freedom to keep
    nad bear arms comes with a responsibility, as do most
    freedoms.
    If Heinlein really believed in what he appeared to, he could stand
    by and watch a child die and not believe anyone was
    obligated to do anything.

    WHich, from my readings of HEinlein I would infer that he
    would have a problem with that.

    Libertarianism doesn't seem to believe in much of anything.

    Libertarians seem to believe in whatever is convenient for them.

    NOt necessarily. My problem is both major parties and their apparent splinter factions (tea party anyone) have too much
    in their agenda that I can't get behind for any reason.
    What you do in the privacy of your own home is your
    business. What you believe, etc. is none of my business.
    But, when you want me to support your bad decisions, i.e.
    having more kids than you can afford, engaging in unsafe
    practices then wanting me to fund your care, or speculating
    with other peoples' money on wall street then expecting a
    bailout, you're asking too much.
    SO, if the uneducated mother wants to have five kids she
    should be able to support five kids. IF aIG wants to play
    speculation with derivatives AIG should bear those
    consequences.

    Education and opportunity should be extended to all who
    would take advantage of them, but, for those who refuse to
    avail themselves of same we should bear no further
    responsibility.

    No thanks, I prefer a moral philosophy based on some actual
    principles.

    sO do I, and my principles are that if the playing field is
    as level as possible then those who don't choose to partake
    aren't owed anything. But, often the biggest barriers are
    attitudinal, both in society at large and within the
    individual. remove the real barriers, whether they be the
    inaccessible building that the man in the wheelchair can't
    reach, the information kiosk with the touchscreen and no
    usable output that the blind man can't use, etc. THose are
    physical barriers. ELiminate them, and work on the
    attitudinal barriers.

    And any moral philosophy that doesn't apply obligations to
    others is not a moral philosophy likely to be successful in the
    real world.

    Indeed this is true, but imho there are limits as to how far we should be obligated. What obligates me to support
    mitigation of another's irresponsible behavior?


    Regards,
    Richard
    ... Creationism is to science what storks are to obstetrics.
    --- timEd 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: (1:116/901)
  • From Bob Ackley@1:300/3 to BOB KLAHN on Sat Nov 13 18:49:44 2010
    Replying to a message of BOB KLAHN to BOB ACKLEY:

    Or any public office for that matter. :) It has to be ego driven,
    IMO. Or, as in most cases, a chance to make really big bucks
    after your term is up.

    "Serving the Public" is seldom the case. :)

    "In any bureaucracy, 'civil servant' is equivalent in
    meaning to 'civil master.'" - Robert A Heinlein, about half
    a century ago.

    Heinlein was wrong about a lot of things. Wrote good SF, but his
    politics were a bit screwed up.

    Only to you collectivists. Heinlein was a big believer in
    freedom and INDIVIDUAL liberty. *You* are not.

    That comes under the heading of, "A mile wide but an inch deep."

    It just demonstrates you know nothing about what I believe in.

    Pro-lifers believe in a lot of restrictions on individual
    freedom. Which means you need to be a democrat.

    Horse sh*t. I have more intelligence. Not all pro-lifers are Republicrooks and not all Democrooks are pro-choice. Besides, there are more choices
    in the political spectrum than Republicrooks and Democrooks.

    Anti-gays don't have much belief in individual freedom at all.

    ANd your point is, what? Anti-smokers don't believe in individual freedom,
    nor do the animal rights fanatics and PETA.

    I believe in freedom of religion, and freedom from religion,
    which puts me one freedom up on the right.

    I believe in freedom of speech, even when I don't agree with
    what is said, which puts me one freedom up on the Tea Party.

    I believe in freedom to live your own life as long at you don't
    harm others. That puts me one freedom up on most people.

    You believe in heavily punishing successful people with taxes, you believe
    in discriminatory ("progressive") tax rates. You don't believe people should be free to hold a job without belonging to or paying dues to a labor organization.

    I also believe in a responsibility as part of our social
    structure, to contribute to maintaining our social structure.
    That seems so obvious it should not require defending.

    That does depend on how one defines those terms, doesn't it?

    I believe the freedom to keep and bear arms requires the
    obligation to learn to do so responsibly. Which puts me on two
    sides of a freedom, depending on which side you stand on.

    If Heinlein really believed in what he appeared to, he could
    stand by and watch a child die and not believe anyone was
    obligated to do anything.

    Libertarianism doesn't seem to believe in much of anything.

    The information is out there. Reason magazine is one source, although
    it is not sponsored by the party and is not a party organ.

    Libertarians seem to believe in whatever is convenient for them.

    No thanks, I prefer a moral philosophy based on some actual
    principles.

    The Libertarian party is the only one in the country that has principles -
    and lives by them.

    --- FleetStreet 1.19+
    * Origin: Bob's Boneyard, Emerson, Iowa (1:300/3)
  • From Bob Ackley@1:300/3 to John Massey on Sat Nov 13 18:56:42 2010
    Replying to a message of John Massey to BOB KLAHN:

    On 11/13/2010 1:39 PM, BOB KLAHN -> BOB ACKLEY wrote:
    I believe in freedom of speech, even when I don't agree with
    what is said, which puts me one freedom up on the Tea Party.

    Then why do you ban people from your echos for what they say?

    Because he owns them and can do anything he bloody well pleases in them.
    AFAIC he can do it by himself, or with the few of his sycophants who remain there.

    --- FleetStreet 1.19+
    * Origin: Bob's Boneyard, Emerson, Iowa (1:300/3)