Andrew,

Will makenl barf if "long record lines" would be used for nodelist segments?

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.98
* Origin: Many Glacier / Protect - Preserve - Conserve (2:292/854)

Hello Ward!

Wednesday February 12 2014 01:37, Ward Dossche wrote to Andrew Leary:

Will makenl barf if "long record lines" would be used for nodelist segments?

The code should handle nodelist lines up to 512 bytes in length.

Andrew

---
* Origin: Bits & Bytes BBS * V.Everything! * 860/535-4284 (1:320/119)

Hello Andrew,

On Tuesday February 11 2014 20:43, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

Will makenl barf if "long record lines" would be used for
nodelist segments?

The code should handle nodelist lines up to 512 bytes in length.

And gracefully handle longer lines I presume? (Instead of crashing like the old
MakeNl)

[ FTSC bureaucrat mode on ]

From FTS-5000.004:

For compatibility with certain broken segment processors, nodelist
maintainers must limit all lines to at most 157 characters (plus
terminator). It is very likely this limitation will be removed in
the future, therefore future software implementations should be able
to process lines of up to 1024 characters, and individual fields of
up to 255 characters (unless otherwise specified).

[ off ]

It is no big deal of course, I do not expect to see lines >512 bytes in the nodelist any time soon. But as you are an FTSC member, you might consider upping the max line length next time you fire up the compiler...

Just a suggestion.

Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20110320
* Origin: http://www.vlist.eu (2:280/5555.6)

Hello Michiel!

12 Feb 14 11:29, you wrote to Andrew Leary:

MvdV> It is no big deal of course, I do not expect to see lines >512 bytes in
MvdV> the nodelist any time soon. But as you are an FTSC member, you might
MvdV> consider upping the max line length next time you fire up the
MvdV> compiler...

The next question of course is: can the plethora of diff processors, followed
by the nodelist converters and mailers that use the raw nodelist,
handle a line length up to 512 characters.

But do we need longer lines to list technical facillities, or just so we can
boast all our hats and feathers.

Kees

--- FPD v2.9.040207 GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
* Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)

Hello Kees,

On Wednesday February 12 2014 11:49, you wrote to me:

But do we need longer lines to list technical facillities, or just so
we can boast all our hats and feathers.

Apparently we do need lines longer than 157 bytes, as accidents have happened when segments with longer lines were submitted in the past. They crashed the old makenl and complete regions and even an entire zone disappeared.

This is not the place to discuss the desirability of "vanity" in the nodelist. That is no concern of the Makenl_Ng crew. Here we should discuss the technical issues with regard to makenl. FTSC complience is a technical issue.

What is actually allowed in the nodelist is for the nodelist clercks to decide.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20110320
* Origin: http://www.vlist.eu (2:280/5555.6)

Hello Michiel!

12 Feb 14 12:44, you wrote to me:

MvdV> This is not the place to discuss the desirability of "vanity" in the
MvdV> nodelist. That is no concern of the Makenl_Ng crew. Here we should
MvdV> discuss the technical issues with regard to makenl. FTSC complience is a
MvdV> technical issue.

The technical requirement is born out of documenting the the processes in
Fidonet. One of wich is showing off vanity in the nodelist.

MvdV> What is actually allowed in the nodelist is for the nodelist clercks
MvdV> to decide.

Indeed and they may have more to worry about.

Just for the record:
The limit for a nodelist line in the Ifmail package is 256.
in Golded package, I have found it to be 512.
For MBSEbbs the nodelist line lenght is set to 1024.

These packages are however still maintained, so ugrades can
be made available any time.

Kees

--- FPD v2.9.040207 GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
* Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)

Kees,

But do we need longer lines to list technical facillities, or just so we can boast all our hats and feathers.

There has already been a non-descript RC of Region-23 I seem to remember who royally bypassed the 157-boundary when deploying all of his feathers at some time.

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.98
* Origin: Many Glacier / Protect - Preserve - Conserve (2:292/854)

Hello Kees,

On Wednesday February 12 2014 13:57, you wrote to me:

MvdV>> Here we should discuss the technical issues with regard to makenl.
MvdV>> FTSC complience is a technical issue.

The technical requirement is born out of documenting the the
processes in Fidonet.

The 1024 line limit first showed up in FTS-5000.002 dated Jan 2005. IIRC it was
a compromise between the "unlimited" faction and those not wanting to saddle the programmers with the burden of "infinite" record length. While larger than "current practise", 1024 was considered "large enough for anybody".

One of wich is showing off vanity in the nodelist.

I fought that battle in the past and lost. I don't want to raise the issue again, it would be an exercise in futility. The nodelist is shrinking, memory gets cheaper, processing power is manyfold it used to be. I have no new arguments end whatever arguments I had then, have lost their strength.

Indeed and they may have more to worry about.

So let THEM worry about it.

Just for the record:
The limit for a nodelist line in the Ifmail package is 256.
in Golded package, I have found it to be 512.
For MBSEbbs the nodelist line lenght is set to 1024.

These packages are however still maintained, so ugrades can
be made available any time.

I don't see the above as an argument against raising the max for MakeNl to 1024.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20110320
* Origin: http://www.vlist.eu (2:280/5555.6)

Hello Michiel!

12 Feb 14 17:21, you wrote to me:

MvdV> I fought that battle in the past and lost. I don't want to raise the
MvdV> issue again, it would be an exercise in futility. The nodelist is
MvdV> shrinking, memory gets cheaper, processing power is manyfold it used to
MvdV> be. I have no new arguments end whatever arguments I had then, have lost
MvdV> their strength.

More and more software becomes abandonware and aging Sysops keep on using it.

Indeed and they may have more to worry about.

MvdV> So let THEM worry about it.

Dn't worry, they probably do.

Just for the record:
The limit for a nodelist line in the Ifmail package is 256.
in Golded package, I have found it to be 512.
For MBSEbbs the nodelist line lenght is set to 1024.

These packages are however still maintained, so ugrades can
be made available any time.

MvdV> I don't see the above as an argument against raising the max for MakeNl
MvdV> to 1024.

No, it is just a start of an inventory, of were changes are needed and
where there a limitations, as the software cannot be modified.
This is not aimed at Makenl, but at the use of longer lines in the nodelist.
It is wonderfull if all levels can produce a nodelist with long lines, but
if it fails on crucial systems on the net, where is the gain?

Kees

--- FPD v2.9.040207 GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
* Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014, Ward Dossche wrote to Kees van Eeten:

But do we need longer lines to list technical facillities, or just
so we can boast all our hats and feathers.

There has already been a non-descript RC of Region-23 I seem to
remember who royally bypassed the 157-boundary when deploying all
of his feathers at some time.

they and others who have done the same are just walking in Dale Ross' tracks from the late 90's or early 00's... he was one of if not the first to push the envelope to point out the problem and force the issue to be recognized and handled... since different domains can be used for different protocols, it was inevitable...

)\/(ark

One of the great tragedies of life is the murder of a beautiful theory by a gang of brutal facts. --Benjamin Franklin

--- FMail/Win32 1.60
* Origin: (1:3634/12.71)

Hello Kees,

On Wednesday February 12 2014 19:20, you wrote to me:

Indeed and they may have more to worry about.

MvdV>> So let THEM worry about it.

Dn't worry, they probably do.

My point was: let's not try to do their job, let us do what we are here for and
just hand them the tools. In this case the tool of MakeNl.

A sensible strategy when buying or making a new tool is to see that it can do more than what is needed at the moment. When you need a pump for the tyres of your car and that car needs 250 kPa, you don't buy one that can do just that and no more. You buy one that can do more, in case you need more in the future.

Let's upgrade Makenl to 1024 lines to comply with FTS-5000. It does not mean that *C's must allow lines that long and if it is never needed, there is no harm done.

These packages are however still maintained, so ugrades can
be made available any time.

MvdV>> I don't see the above as an argument against raising the max
MvdV>> for MakeNl to 1024.

No, it is just a start of an inventory, of were changes are needed and where there a limitations, as the software cannot be modified. This is
not aimed at Makenl, but at the use of longer lines in the nodelist.

Makes sense, but you are barking up the wrong tree. Here we make the tools. How
they are used by the *Cs is a different issue that belongs in an area where the
sysops can meet with the *Cs.

It is wonderfull if all levels can produce a nodelist with long lines,

Decoupling Pvt and -Unpublished- was not the only reason for the MakeNl_Ng project. Another and perhaps more important reason at the time was the 157 bytes bug. The old MakeNl CRASHED at lines > 157 bytes. Very Annoying.

but if it fails on crucial systems on the net,

That remains to be seen. Where is the spirit of the old days when we just tried
it and saw what happened?

where is the gain?

157 bytes has been demonstated to be too short. The gain in allowing THIS tool to handle longer lines is that at least with THIS tool we will not run into that problem again.

What is lost?


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20110320
* Origin: http://www.vlist.eu (2:280/5555.6)

Michiel,

157 bytes has been demonstated to be too short.

I fully concur ...

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.98
* Origin: Many Glacier / Protect - Preserve - Conserve (2:292/854)

Hello Michiel!

Wednesday February 12 2014 11:29, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Andrew Leary:

The code should handle nodelist lines up to 512 bytes in length.

MvdV> And gracefully handle longer lines I presume? (Instead of crashing
MvdV> like the old MakeNl)

MvdV> [ FTSC bureaucrat mode on ]

MvdV> From FTS-5000.004:

MvdV> For compatibility with certain broken segment processors, nodelist
MvdV> maintainers must limit all lines to at most 157 characters (plus
MvdV> terminator). It is very likely this limitation will be removed in
MvdV> the future, therefore future software implementations should be able
MvdV> to process lines of up to 1024 characters, and individual fields of
MvdV> up to 255 characters (unless otherwise specified).

MvdV> [ off ]

MvdV> It is no big deal of course, I do not expect to see lines >512 bytes
MvdV> in the nodelist any time soon. But as you are an FTSC member, you
MvdV> might consider upping the max line length next time you fire up the
MvdV> compiler...

MvdV> Just a suggestion.

I will look into it the next time I'm near that part of the code.

Andrew

---
* Origin: Bits & Bytes BBS * V.Everything! * 860/535-4284 (1:320/119)