• Was Jesus rich?

    From TIM RICHARDSON@1:123/140 to ROSS SAUER on Sun Jan 3 08:14:00 2010
    On 01-02-10, ROSS SAUER said to TIM RICHARDSON:


    You aren't `discussing' religion......you are slamming `religionists'.



    Who deserve slamming.



    And *you*....of course, are just the one who is qualified to do the slamming.


    You'd do far better to tend to your own problems before worrying about others.



    Again....you are focusing on a `person' who wasn't exactly the ideal
    of a `man of God'.


    You kidding?


    No, I'm not.


    Even Hollywood could never come up with a character like Falwell.


    Yes they did. You just aren't aware of it. In fact.....they couldn't have come up with a better parody of someone like Falwell if they'd really been trying to. I think it was accidental, but so accurate as to be unmistakable.


    Self-righteous, hypocritical, theocratic, serial liar, greedy, and those RS>are his good points.


    You spend a lot of time throwing adjectives and descriptives out on your computer screen, most of which are hilarious coming from *you* (of all
    people).


    You focus far too often on the bad *you* see in others......you should focus a little closer to home....and deal with yourself, first, before trying to spread your sense of moral outrage at others.



    I'm not a national figure, begging for money on TV, encouraging Ugandan RS>politicians to pass a "death penalty for gays" law, trying to get RS>"Christian nation" laws passed in this country, using religion to justify RS>unreasoning hatred.


    Christians don't molest children. HOMOs do. - Tim Richardson


    You know.....I always enjoy it when you post that out here. It is total proof that you have not one single clue for what a real Christian is.


    It also completely obliterates your entire argument. It is proof that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to religion.


    You don't belong in a religious discussion. Intellectually, you are completely unarmed.


    Why you ignorant faggot-lovin' idiot. **HOLYSMOKE** is not only a
    `FLAME' echo, it harbors suck-dick faggot-lovin' idiots like you.
    -Tim Richardson


    That is exactly what this echo was at the time. And some of the vile stuff you and your cohorts were tossing at me are as bad if not worse, than anything I posted up in here.


    The only thing (the absolute *only* thing) I regret from that time? Not anything I posted. Not one single word. But I do regret that I allowed you
    pack of curs to draw me into a flame war.


    By the way.......*you* dare to toss that at me? Surely....you jest!


    ".....this man-hating bull dyke....".....Otto Sauer


    "Grow up yourself, gayboy." ......Otto Sauer


    "And you're a sleazy faggot,..." ....Otto Sauer


    "I dreamed I had Bush, Rove, Cheney, and Rummy porking me up the bum." ...Otto Sauer


    "They're HOMOS!" .........Otto Sauer


    "Fag." ......Otto Sauer


    Better stay at home with your `quotes', pal.....I got a whole list of stuff you've spouted in the past. A list which is growing daily (I read you on DEM Under a lot, too), and you can't even hold your own in a discussion of
    religion as it is, without branching out into other areas.









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  • From Ross Sauer@1:123/789 to All on Thu Dec 31 00:50:12 2009
    And did he advocate preachers getting rich?

    Bit of a thorny issue here!

    I think any preacher who uses the Gospels to justify getting rich
    deserves to have to pay TAXES!

    Passions over 'prosperity gospel': Was Jesus wealthy?
    By John Blake, CNN

    Jesus wasn't poor, Rev. C. Thomas Anderson claims
    Preacher: Donkey, wise men's gifts, expensive undergarments prove Jesus
    was wealthy

    Professor: "torturous interpretations" and historical naivete make Jesus
    rich

    Televangelists have built megachurches by equating piety and prosperity

    RELATED TOPICS
    Jesus Christ
    Mahatma Gandhi
    (CNN) -- Each Christmas, Christians tell stories about the poor baby
    Jesus born in a lowly manger because there was no room in the inn.

    But the Rev. C. Thomas Anderson, senior pastor of the Living Word Bible
    Church in Mesa, Arizona, preaches a version of the Christmas story that
    says baby Jesus wasn't so poor after all.

    Anderson says Jesus couldn't have been poor because he received
    lucrative gifts -- gold, frankincense and myrrh -- at birth. Jesus had
    to be wealthy because the Roman soldiers who crucified him gambled for
    his expensive undergarments. Even Jesus' parents, Mary and Joseph, lived
    and traveled in style, he says.

    "Mary and Joseph took a Cadillac to get to Bethlehem because the finest transportation of their day was a donkey," says Anderson. "Poor people
    ate their donkey. Only the wealthy used it as transportation."

    Many Christians see Jesus as the poor, itinerant preacher who had "no
    place to lay his head." But as Christians gather around the globe this
    year to celebrate the birth of Jesus, another group of Christians are
    insisting that Jesus' beginnings weren't so humble.

    They say that Jesus was never poor -- and neither should his followers
    be. Their claim is embedded in the doctrine known as the prosperity
    gospel, which holds that God rewards the faithful with financial
    prosperity and spiritual gifts.

    A clash of gospels?

    The prosperity gospel has attracted plenty of critics. But popular televangelists such as the late Oral Roberts, Kenneth Hagin and, today,
    Creflo Dollar have built megachurches and a global audience by equating
    piety with prosperity.

    The prosperity gospel, however, clashes with the traditional depictions
    of Jesus as poor. That's because the traditional image of Jesus as
    destitute is wrong, says the Rev. Tom Brown, senior pastor of the Word
    of Life Church in El Paso, Texas.

    The proof, he says, is scattered throughout the New Testament. One
    example: The 12th chapter of the Gospel of John says that Jesus had a treasurer, or a "keeper of the money bag."

    "The last time I checked, poor people don't have treasurers to take care
    their money," says Brown, author of "Devil, Demons and Spiritual
    Warfare."

    A debate over the economic status of Jesus may seem nonsensical to some.
    Does it really matter whether Jesus was rich or poor?

    It matters to people like Luke Timothy Johnson, a prominent New
    Testament scholar and author. He says that a rich Jesus is a distortion
    of history and a threat to one of Christianity's core teachings: God's identification with the poor.

    "If Jesus reveals God, there is something powerful about God appearing
    and working among the poor," says Johnson, a New Testament professor at
    Emory University's Candler School of Theology in Atlanta, Georgia.

    "Jesus' lifestyle is not of one in a gated community or a corporate
    office," says Johnson, a former Benedictine monk. "You don't have to go
    through a security gate to get to Jesus. People touch him. He reached
    out and touched children. His accessibility is one of the most powerful messages of Christianity. In Jesus, God is with us, and the majority of
    us are poor."

    'The poor won't follow the poor'

    Some prosperity preachers extract a different message from the same
    biblical texts. Brown, the El Paso minister, says he doesn't say that
    Jesus was rich because he wants to give people an excuse to live self- indulgent lives. He wants people to understand that Jesus used his
    material and spiritual riches to help people -- and so should they.

    Brown says Jesus' own words prove that he wasn't poor.

    "Jesus said you will always have the poor, but you will not always have
    me," Brown says. "Jesus did not affirm himself as being part of the poor class...

    "I believe he was the richest man on the face of the earth because he
    had God as his source," Brown says.

    Jesus' wealth is evident even in the Gospel accounts of his execution,
    some pastors say.

    The New Testament reports that Roman soldiers gambled for Jesus'
    clothing while he hung on the cross. They wouldn't gamble for Jesus'
    clothing unless it was expensive, Anderson says.

    "I don't know anybody -- even Pamela Anderson -- that would have people gambling for his underwear," Anderson says. "That was some fine stuff he
    wore."

    Anderson says Jesus never would have had disciples or a large following
    if he was poor. He would not have been able to command their respect.

    "The poor will follow the rich, the rich will follow the rich, but the
    rich will never follow the poor," Anderson says.

    Twisting scripture for personal gain?

    Johnson, the Emory University New Testament professor, calls Anderson's argument "completely illogical."

    "So Martin Luther King must have been a millionaire," he says. "Crowds
    followed Siddhartha Buddha and he was poor. And mobs followed Mahatma
    Gandhi, and Gandhi wore a diaper, for God's sake."

    The argument that Jesus was wealthy because the soldiers gambled for his clothes at his crucifixion doesn't makes historical sense, either, says Johnson, author of "Among the Gentiles: Greco-Roman Religion and
    Christianity."

    "Crucifixion was the sort of execution carried out for slaves and for
    rebels," Johnson says. "It wasn't an execution for wealthy people."

    A Baylor University religion professor who specializes in the study of
    the poor in the Greco-Roman world also says there is "no way" that Jesus
    could be considered wealthy.

    Bruce W. Longenecker says life in Jesus' world was brutal. About 90
    percent of people lived in poverty. A famine or a bad crop could ruin a
    family. There was no middle class.

    "In the ancient world, you were relatively poor or filthy rich, there's
    very little in-between," says Longenecker, author of "Engaging
    Economics: New Testament Scenarios and Early Christian Reception."

    The New Testament is full of parables where Jesus actually condemns the
    rich and praises the poor, Longenecker says. In the sixth chapter of the
    Gospel of Luke, Jesus actually curses the rich, he says.

    "The only way you can make Jesus into a rich man is by advocating
    torturous interpretations and by being wholly naive historically,"
    Longenecker says.

    Anderson, the Arizona pastor, doesn't buy that argument. He says the
    church has actually been damaged by teaching that Jesus was poor. God
    wants his followers to be rich, not for selfish gain, but to help others
    in need and spread the gospel.

    When he first preached that Jesus wasn't poor to his church, Anderson
    says he "ruffled some feathers."

    Now, he says, his church has 9,000 members and a global ministry.

    "That's so pathetic, to say that Jesus was struggling alone in the dust
    and dirt," Anderson says. "That just makes no sense whatsoever. He was constantly in a state of wealth."

    (c) 2008 Cable News Network

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  • From JOHNJWILSON@1:123/140 to ROSS SAUER on Thu Dec 31 05:20:36 2009
    And did he advocate preachers getting rich?

    Bit of a thorny issue here!

    Not even barely; Jesus had an accountant (who screwed him), was pissed off
    at the wall street of the time, believed in paying taxes...

    I think any preacher who uses the Gospels to justify getting rich
    deserves to have to pay TAXES!
    A lot worse than that. :-)


    Preacher: Donkey, wise men's gifts, expensive undergarments prove Jesus
    was wealthy

    The Donkey was a free rental, and...expensive undergarments? C-o-m-e ON!
    :-)


    Professor: "torturous interpretations" and historical naivete make Jesus rich

    Exactly.

    Televangelists have built megachurches by equating piety and prosperity

    And fear with 'tithing'.


    his expensive undergarments. Even Jesus' parents, Mary and Joseph, lived
    and traveled in style, he says.

    The Garments were, evidently, the only things Jesus owned. Some rich!




    A clash of gospels?

    A mere sign of greed, a desire for power.



    piety with prosperity.

    Hell, some people vote Republican. :-)

    example: The 12th chapter of the Gospel of John says that Jesus had a treasurer, or a "keeper of the money bag."

    Ah. Yes.

    "The last time I checked, poor people don't have treasurers to take care their money," says Brown, author of "Devil, Demons and Spiritual
    Warfare."
    He should check again. You do your own taxes? Those who don't are rich?



    A debate over the economic status of Jesus may seem nonsensical to some. Does it really matter whether Jesus was rich or poor?

    No.


    It matters to people like Luke Timothy Johnson, a prominent New
    Testament scholar and author. He says that a rich Jesus is a distortion
    of history and a threat to one of Christianity's core teachings: God's identification with the poor.
    Recognition of and compassion for is NOT identification with...

    The whole topic is distasteful. Caesar and God are differentiated by Jesus.


    "If Jesus reveals God...
    Wow! Jesus reveals man as he should be, in tune with, but revealed?




    , there is something powerful about God appearing
    and working among the poor,"

    What profession was Jesus working? Healer?


    "Jesus' lifestyle is not of one in a gated community or a corporate
    office," says Johnson, a former Benedictine monk.

    Amazing news!


    "You don't have to go
    through a security gate to get to Jesus. People touch him. He reached
    out and touched children...

    So did a lot of catholic Priests...oops. sorry..

    His accessibility is one of the most powerful
    messages of Christianity.

    Through a priest mainly for a few hundred years - some message!



    In Jesus, God is with us, and the majority of
    us are poor."

    Which neatly says exactly nothing at all.



    Some prosperity preachers extract a different message from the same
    biblical texts.

    Noooo kidding!



    "Jesus said you will always have the poor, but you will not always have
    me," Brown says. "Jesus did not affirm himself as being part of the poor class...

    A fairly simple distortion, but would take time...

    "I believe he was the richest man on the face of the earth because he
    had God as his source," Brown says.

    Right! Leap from the actual to the abstract!



    The New Testament reports that Roman soldiers gambled for Jesus'
    clothing while he hung on the cross. They wouldn't gamble for Jesus' clothing unless it was expensive, Anderson says.

    Hey Anderson: Would somebody pay $100,000.00 for one glove?



    "I don't know anybody -- even Pamela Anderson -- that would have people gambling for his underwear," Anderson says.

    Even Pamela Anderson? Even?

    "That was some fine stuff he
    wore."

    Anderson is possessed. Girls: Don't talk about your panties with Anderson.

    Anderson says Jesus never would have had disciples or a large following
    if he was poor. He would not have been able to command their respect.

    There's a neat-o elitist remark.

    "The poor will follow the rich, the rich will follow the rich, but the
    rich will never follow the poor," Anderson says.

    Wow. I'd think that would be dependent on exactly what was being followed. There are no rich people following poor preachers? Rich investors are not following poor scientists?

    Twisting scripture for personal gain?

    A habit (tradition) at LEAST 1,600 years old...

    Johnson, the Emory University New Testament professor, calls Anderson's argument "completely illogical."

    Whew! Yes.


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  • From TIM RICHARDSON@1:123/140 to ROSS SAUER on Thu Dec 31 05:16:00 2009
    On 12-31-09, ROSS SAUER said to ALL:


    And did he advocate preachers getting rich?


    Bit of a thorny issue here!


    I think any preacher who uses the Gospels to justify getting rich RS>deserves to have to pay TAXES!


    Passions over 'prosperity gospel': Was Jesus wealthy?
    By John Blake, CNN


    Jesus wasn't poor, Rev. C. Thomas Anderson claims
    Preacher: Donkey, wise men's gifts, expensive undergarments prove Jesus RS>was wealthy


    Jesus `wasn't' poor. His step-father, Joseph, was a carpenter. Jesus followed into Joseph's trade.


    In the day of Jesus, pretty much as now, a skilled tradesman always has work, and makes a good living. Where the idea that Jesus was `poor' came from is probably buried in antiquity. But skilled carpenters are rarely, if ever, `poor'.





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  • From Ross Sauer@1:123/789 to TIM RICHARDSON on Thu Dec 31 12:01:48 2009
    "TIM RICHARDSON -> ROSS SAUER" <1:123/140> wrote in news:10657$HOLYSMOKE@JamNNTPd:

    And did he advocate preachers getting rich?


    Bit of a thorny issue here!


    I think any preacher who uses the Gospels to justify getting rich
    deserves to have to pay TAXES!


    Passions over 'prosperity gospel': Was Jesus wealthy?
    By John Blake, CNN


    Jesus wasn't poor, Rev. C. Thomas Anderson claims
    Preacher: Donkey, wise men's gifts, expensive undergarments prove
    Jesus RS>was wealthy


    Jesus `wasn't' poor. His step-father, Joseph, was a carpenter. Jesus followed into Joseph's trade.

    I know that.
    But we have no idea if Joseph was a good carpenter, mediocre or bad.
    Likewise Jesus.

    In the day of Jesus, pretty much as now, a skilled tradesman always
    has work, and makes a good living. Where the idea that Jesus was
    `poor' came from is probably buried in antiquity. But skilled
    carpenters are rarely, if ever, `poor'.

    Thing is Jesus gave up the trade to go "on the road."

    So how much ready cash did he have at hand?

    Some of these "Prosperity Preachers" say he had a lot.

    --- Xnews/5.04.25
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  • From Ed Hulett@1:123/789 to Ross Sauer on Thu Dec 31 14:16:19 2009
    Ross Sauer -> TIM RICHARDSON wrote:
    "TIM RICHARDSON -> ROSS SAUER" <1:123/140> wrote in news:10657$HOLYSMOKE@JamNNTPd:

    And did he advocate preachers getting rich?


    Bit of a thorny issue here!


    I think any preacher who uses the Gospels to justify getting rich
    deserves to have to pay TAXES!


    Passions over 'prosperity gospel': Was Jesus wealthy?
    By John Blake, CNN


    Jesus wasn't poor, Rev. C. Thomas Anderson claims
    Preacher: Donkey, wise men's gifts, expensive undergarments prove
    Jesus RS>was wealthy


    Jesus `wasn't' poor. His step-father, Joseph, was a carpenter. Jesus
    followed into Joseph's trade.

    I know that.
    But we have no idea if Joseph was a good carpenter, mediocre or bad. Likewise Jesus.

    Good grief. Read the book, it tells you how good Joseph and Jesus were as wood workers. "Carpenter" is a misnomer, they were more carver and carpenter.

    In the day of Jesus, pretty much as now, a skilled tradesman always
    has work, and makes a good living. Where the idea that Jesus was
    `poor' came from is probably buried in antiquity. But skilled
    carpenters are rarely, if ever, `poor'.

    Thing is Jesus gave up the trade to go "on the road."

    He was on the road for 3 years.

    So how much ready cash did he have at hand?

    He didn't take much cash at all. Read the story of the young rich man to understand it. Jesus told the young man to sell all his property and give the money to the poor not because Jesus was teaching him that he must be poor to follow Him, but that he could not have two masters. The lesson is that one cannot love wealth and God at the same time.

    I know several people who are devout Christians and are wealthy. The consecrated all their possessions to the service of the Lord, helping those less fortunate when the need arises. God does not want you to be poor, but He also does not want you to be so caught up in gaining material wealth that you forget where it all comes from.

    Some of these "Prosperity Preachers" say he had a lot.

    He was comfortable, but not wealthy like those preachers claim. Again, the story of the young rich man is an example.

    It's a case of priorities.

    Ed

    --
    "Truth does not become more true by virtue of the fact that the
    entire world agrees with it, nor less so even if the whole world
    disagrees with it." --Jewish philosopher Maimonides (1135-1204)

    Blogs: http://edsramblings.wordpress.com | http://woodcaringnsuch.wordpress.com http://edsscrollsawbits.blogspot.com

    Facebook: http://wwwfacebook/com/ed.hulett | Twitter: yaesu

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  • From Ross Sauer@1:123/789 to Ed Hulett on Thu Dec 31 14:57:56 2009
    "Ed Hulett -> Ross Sauer" <1:123/789.0> wrote in
    news:10659$HOLYSMOKE@JamNNTPd:

    Jesus `wasn't' poor. His step-father, Joseph, was a carpenter.
    Jesus TR>> followed into Joseph's trade.

    I know that.
    But we have no idea if Joseph was a good carpenter, mediocre or
    bad. RS> Likewise Jesus.

    Good grief. Read the book, it tells you how good Joseph and Jesus were
    as wood workers. "Carpenter" is a misnomer, they were more carver and carpenter.

    The Bible does say how good they were?
    Show me.

    In the day of Jesus, pretty much as now, a skilled tradesman
    always TR>> has work, and makes a good living. Where the idea that
    Jesus was TR>> `poor' came from is probably buried in antiquity. But
    skilled TR>> carpenters are rarely, if ever, `poor'.

    Thing is Jesus gave up the trade to go "on the road."

    He was on the road for 3 years.

    I know. 3 years, POSSIBLY.
    He may have gone on the road before that and it was never written about.

    So how much ready cash did he have at hand?

    He didn't take much cash at all. Read the story of the young rich man
    to understand it. Jesus told the young man to sell all his property
    and give the money to the poor not because Jesus was teaching him that
    he must be poor to follow Him, but that he could not have two masters.

    I remember that story.
    Too bad Pat Robertson forgot it.

    The lesson is that one cannot love wealth and God at the same time.

    Tell that to the Prosperity Preachers.

    I know several people who are devout Christians and are wealthy. The consecrated all their possessions to the service of the Lord, helping those less fortunate when the need arises. God does not want you to be poor, but He also does not want you to be so caught up in gaining
    material wealth that you forget where it all comes from.

    "Consecrated all their possesions to the Lord?"
    How do they do that?

    Some of these "Prosperity Preachers" say he had a lot.

    He was comfortable, but not wealthy like those preachers claim. Again,
    the story of the young rich man is an example.

    It's a case of priorities.

    And the priorities of far too many national and/or TV preachers is
    gaining wealth for themselves.
    Jerry Falwell even kissed up to Moon, who he had previously condemned,
    when he wanted to keep his TV ministry going but not cut his own and his cronies' salaries.

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  • From Ed Hulett@1:123/789 to Ross Sauer on Thu Dec 31 15:45:54 2009
    Ross Sauer -> Ed Hulett wrote:
    "Ed Hulett -> Ross Sauer" <1:123/789.0> wrote in news:10659$HOLYSMOKE@JamNNTPd:

    Jesus `wasn't' poor. His step-father, Joseph, was a carpenter.
    Jesus TR>> followed into Joseph's trade.

    I know that.
    But we have no idea if Joseph was a good carpenter, mediocre or
    bad. RS> Likewise Jesus.

    Good grief. Read the book, it tells you how good Joseph and Jesus were
    as wood workers. "Carpenter" is a misnomer, they were more carver and
    carpenter.

    The Bible does say how good they were?
    Show me.

    Back then a tradesman was well respected and a woodworker was considered among the best. One did not become a woodworker right off the street, but had to go through years of apprenticeship.

    In the day of Jesus, pretty much as now, a skilled tradesman
    always TR>> has work, and makes a good living. Where the idea that
    Jesus was TR>> `poor' came from is probably buried in antiquity. But
    skilled TR>> carpenters are rarely, if ever, `poor'.

    Thing is Jesus gave up the trade to go "on the road."

    He was on the road for 3 years.

    I know. 3 years, POSSIBLY.
    He may have gone on the road before that and it was never written about.

    His ministry spanned 3 years.

    So how much ready cash did he have at hand?

    He didn't take much cash at all. Read the story of the young rich man
    to understand it. Jesus told the young man to sell all his property
    and give the money to the poor not because Jesus was teaching him that
    he must be poor to follow Him, but that he could not have two masters.

    I remember that story.
    Too bad Pat Robertson forgot it.

    Your knickers knot up whenever you think of Pat Robertson.

    The lesson is that one cannot love wealth and God at the same time.

    Tell that to the Prosperity Preachers.

    Why should I? I have no need to.

    I know several people who are devout Christians and are wealthy. The
    consecrated all their possessions to the service of the Lord, helping
    those less fortunate when the need arises. God does not want you to be
    poor, but He also does not want you to be so caught up in gaining
    material wealth that you forget where it all comes from.

    "Consecrated all their possesions to the Lord?"
    How do they do that?

    They admit that all they have is God's and that they use it in His service. IOW, they willingly share it with those in need when the need arises. I explained it quite well already. Your inability to understand what I said isn't
    my problem.

    Some of these "Prosperity Preachers" say he had a lot.

    He was comfortable, but not wealthy like those preachers claim. Again,
    the story of the young rich man is an example.

    It's a case of priorities.

    And the priorities of far too many national and/or TV preachers is
    gaining wealth for themselves.

    You know this... how?

    Jim and Tammy Fay Bakker were an example of what you claim with gold plated bathroom fixtures and such.

    Jerry Falwell even kissed up to Moon, who he had previously condemned, when he wanted to keep his TV ministry going but not cut his own and his cronies' salaries.

    Falwell is dead.

    Ed

    --
    "Truth does not become more true by virtue of the fact that the
    entire world agrees with it, nor less so even if the whole world
    disagrees with it." --Jewish philosopher Maimonides (1135-1204)

    Blogs: http://edsramblings.wordpress.com | http://woodcaringnsuch.wordpress.com http://edsscrollsawbits.blogspot.com

    Facebook: http://wwwfacebook/com/ed.hulett | Twitter: yaesu

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  • From Ross Sauer@1:123/789 to Ed Hulett on Thu Dec 31 17:02:35 2009
    "Ed Hulett -> Ross Sauer" <1:123/789.0> wrote in
    news:10661$HOLYSMOKE@JamNNTPd:

    Good grief. Read the book, it tells you how good Joseph and
    Jesus were EH>> as wood workers. "Carpenter" is a misnomer, they
    were more carver and EH>> carpenter.

    The Bible does say how good they were?
    Show me.

    Back then a tradesman was well respected and a woodworker was
    considered among the best. One did not become a woodworker right off
    the street, but had to go through years of apprenticeship.

    Again, the Bible says how good they were?
    Your exact quote: "Read the book, it tells you how good Joseph and
    Jesus were as wood workers. "Carpenter" is a misnomer, they
    were more carver and carpenter."

    Where in the Bible does it say?

    In the day of Jesus, pretty much as now, a skilled tradesman
    always TR>> has work, and makes a good living. Where the idea
    that EH>> Jesus was TR>> `poor' came from is probably buried in
    antiquity. But EH>> skilled TR>> carpenters are rarely, if ever,
    `poor'.

    Thing is Jesus gave up the trade to go "on the road."

    He was on the road for 3 years.

    I know. 3 years, POSSIBLY.
    He may have gone on the road before that and it was never
    written about.

    His ministry spanned 3 years.

    That you know of.

    So how much ready cash did he have at hand?

    He didn't take much cash at all. Read the story of the young
    rich man EH>> to understand it. Jesus told the young man to sell all
    his property EH>> and give the money to the poor not because Jesus
    was teaching him that EH>> he must be poor to follow Him, but that
    he could not have two masters.

    I remember that story.
    Too bad Pat Robertson forgot it.

    Your knickers knot up whenever you think of Pat Robertson.

    Robertson is a corrupt fake Christian.
    And even after he's dead, his family will continue spreading his gospel
    of hatred and lies.

    (Not to mention Robertson using his TV pulpit to sell just about
    anything...)

    The lesson is that one cannot love wealth and God at the same
    time.

    Tell that to the Prosperity Preachers.

    Why should I? I have no need to.

    I know several people who are devout Christians and are
    wealthy. The EH>> consecrated all their possessions to the service
    of the Lord, helping EH>> those less fortunate when the need arises.
    God does not want you to be EH>> poor, but He also does not want you
    to be so caught up in gaining EH>> material wealth that you forget
    where it all comes from.

    "Consecrated all their possesions to the Lord?"
    How do they do that?

    They admit that all they have is God's and that they use it in His service. IOW, they willingly share it with those in need when the need arises. I explained it quite well already. Your inability to
    understand what I said isn't my problem.

    They may have "consecrated their stuff to the Lord," but in reality it
    goes to the church.

    Some of these "Prosperity Preachers" say he had a lot.

    He was comfortable, but not wealthy like those preachers claim.
    Again, EH>> the story of the young rich man is an example.

    It's a case of priorities.

    And the priorities of far too many national and/or TV preachers
    is RS> gaining wealth for themselves.

    You know this... how?

    Ever see a poor TV preacher?

    Just go to Trinity Broadcast Network, with their fancy clothes, big hair
    and sitting on golden thrones.
    I'm serious. GOLDEN thrones.

    Jim and Tammy Fay Bakker were an example of what you claim with gold plated bathroom fixtures and such.

    At least Tammy dumped her corrupt husband, and did some good before she
    died of cancer.

    Jerry Falwell even kissed up to Moon, who he had previously
    condemned, RS> when he wanted to keep his TV ministry going but not
    cut his own and his RS> cronies' salaries.

    Falwell is dead.

    His brat...I mean son is carrying on in Jerry's footsteps, complete with hatred, lies, and constantly begging for money.

    --- Xnews/5.04.25
    * Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)
  • From Ed Hulett@1:123/789 to Ross Sauer on Thu Dec 31 17:49:15 2009
    Ross Sauer -> Ed Hulett wrote:
    "Ed Hulett -> Ross Sauer" <1:123/789.0> wrote in news:10661$HOLYSMOKE@JamNNTPd:

    Good grief. Read the book, it tells you how good Joseph and
    Jesus were EH>> as wood workers. "Carpenter" is a misnomer, they
    were more carver and EH>> carpenter.

    The Bible does say how good they were?
    Show me.

    Back then a tradesman was well respected and a woodworker was
    considered among the best. One did not become a woodworker right off
    the street, but had to go through years of apprenticeship.

    Again, the Bible says how good they were?
    Your exact quote: "Read the book, it tells you how good Joseph and
    Jesus were as wood workers. "Carpenter" is a misnomer, they
    were more carver and carpenter."

    Where in the Bible does it say?

    Just the fact that it says Joseph was a wood worker says he was a skilled craftsman. He was also a man of property.

    In the day of Jesus, pretty much as now, a skilled tradesman
    always TR>> has work, and makes a good living. Where the idea
    that EH>> Jesus was TR>> `poor' came from is probably buried in
    antiquity. But EH>> skilled TR>> carpenters are rarely, if ever,
    `poor'.

    Thing is Jesus gave up the trade to go "on the road."

    He was on the road for 3 years.

    I know. 3 years, POSSIBLY.
    He may have gone on the road before that and it was never
    written about.

    His ministry spanned 3 years.

    That you know of.

    If his ministry spanned more than 3 years, the Bible would say so.

    So how much ready cash did he have at hand?

    He didn't take much cash at all. Read the story of the young
    rich man EH>> to understand it. Jesus told the young man to sell all
    his property EH>> and give the money to the poor not because Jesus
    was teaching him that EH>> he must be poor to follow Him, but that
    he could not have two masters.

    I remember that story.
    Too bad Pat Robertson forgot it.

    Your knickers knot up whenever you think of Pat Robertson.

    Robertson is a corrupt fake Christian.
    And even after he's dead, his family will continue spreading his gospel
    of hatred and lies.

    Again, your knickers knot up every time you think of Robertson.

    (Not to mention Robertson using his TV pulpit to sell just about anything...)

    I wouldn't know, I don't watch him.

    The lesson is that one cannot love wealth and God at the same
    time.

    Tell that to the Prosperity Preachers.

    Why should I? I have no need to.

    I know several people who are devout Christians and are
    wealthy. The EH>> consecrated all their possessions to the service
    of the Lord, helping EH>> those less fortunate when the need arises.
    God does not want you to be EH>> poor, but He also does not want you
    to be so caught up in gaining EH>> material wealth that you forget
    where it all comes from.

    "Consecrated all their possesions to the Lord?"
    How do they do that?

    They admit that all they have is God's and that they use it in His
    service. IOW, they willingly share it with those in need when the need
    arises. I explained it quite well already. Your inability to
    understand what I said isn't my problem.

    They may have "consecrated their stuff to the Lord," but in reality it goes to the church.

    Nonsense! They help the poor directly! I've seen it. What they give to the church in tithing is used to help the poor as well. You don't know a thing about the people I refer to other than what I have said. Nor do you know anything about how my Church works - where tithing goes or how it is used. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has the most successful welfare program on earth. Several governments including the US government have studied the LDS welfare program in attempts to make their's better.

    Some of these "Prosperity Preachers" say he had a lot.

    He was comfortable, but not wealthy like those preachers claim.
    Again, EH>> the story of the young rich man is an example.

    It's a case of priorities.

    And the priorities of far too many national and/or TV preachers
    is RS> gaining wealth for themselves.

    You know this... how?

    Ever see a poor TV preacher?

    No, but I haven't watched or paid attention to many TV preachers.

    Just go to Trinity Broadcast Network, with their fancy clothes, big hair and sitting on golden thrones.
    I'm serious. GOLDEN thrones.

    I doubt their "thrones" are made of gold. Maybe wood with gold leaf.

    Jim and Tammy Fay Bakker were an example of what you claim with gold
    plated bathroom fixtures and such.

    At least Tammy dumped her corrupt husband, and did some good before she died of cancer.

    Good for her.

    Jerry Falwell even kissed up to Moon, who he had previously
    condemned, RS> when he wanted to keep his TV ministry going but not
    cut his own and his RS> cronies' salaries.

    Falwell is dead.

    His brat...I mean son is carrying on in Jerry's footsteps, complete with hatred, lies, and constantly begging for money.

    I wouldn't know, I don't pay attention to them. If they really knot up your knickers, maybe you should ignore them. I can't understand why you spend so much energy ranting about them. It has to do with your immature concentration on other people and not ideas.

    Ed

    --
    "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is
    to fill the world with fools." --Herbert Spencer

    Blogs: http://edsramblings.wordpress.com | Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/ed.hulett
    http://woodcarvingnsuch.wordpress.com | Twitter: yaesu http://edsscrollsawbits.blogspot.com

    Linux User# 416016
    Linux Machine# 379711

    --- Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817)
    * Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)
  • From TIM RICHARDSON@1:123/140 to ROSS SAUER on Fri Jan 1 08:51:00 2010
    On 12-31-09, ROSS SAUER said to ED HULETT:


    Falwell is dead.


    His brat...I mean son is carrying on in Jerry's footsteps, complete with RS>hatred, lies, and constantly begging for money.


    Obviously, the absolute irony of someone like *you* typing your sentence above completely escapes you.


    You go after Jesus as though you must drag him, also, down to *your* level in order to feel good about yourself, in much the same way you do others.


    Maybe you should study some of the things Jwsus talked about in his ministry, and apply them to your own life, instead of constantly seeking evil where none exists.


    Jesus once gave a talk about addressing the evil in your own life, before trying to pass judgement on the evil in others. You might learn some things about yourself if you were to seriously study the ministry of Jesus, instead
    of trying to equate Jesus with modern-day individuals like the Bakkers, or Falwell.


    By the way.....I notice you don't have much to say about Mohammad, or Allah. A little scared?



    ---
    *Durango b301 #PE*
    * Origin: Doc's Place BBS Fido Since 1991 docsplace.tzo.com (1:123/140)
  • From Ross Sauer@1:123/789 to TIM RICHARDSON on Fri Jan 1 13:21:18 2010
    "TIM RICHARDSON -> ROSS SAUER" <1:123/140> wrote in news:10664$HOLYSMOKE@JamNNTPd:

    Falwell is dead.


    His brat...I mean son is carrying on in Jerry's footsteps, complete
    with RS>hatred, lies, and constantly begging for money.


    Obviously, the absolute irony of someone like *you* typing your
    sentence above completely escapes you.


    You go after Jesus as though you must drag him, also, down to *your*
    level in order to feel good about yourself, in much the same way you
    do others.

    How do you go from my complaints about "God told me it's ok to get rich
    from my pulpit" preachers to Jesus?

    I simply posted an article about a controversy, where two sets of
    preachers say two different things, one groups saying Jesus was poor,
    the other saying Jesus was rich.

    Jerry Falwell himself began his career using his electronic pulpit to
    defend racism and segregation.

    When it came to a choice between lowering the big fat salary he had his
    church give him, and taking money from a cult leader, (Moon,) who
    Falwell had condemned, Falwell took the Moon money.

    Two days after 9-11, Falwell said atheists, humanists, etc, were to
    blame for 9-11, and gave a halfassed apology a couple more days later.
    Which he subsequently disavowed, and to the end of his life said what he
    had stated about 9-11 was true.

    Now that he's died, Falwell's son has taken over the Falwell franchise,
    and is running it just like Daddy did.
    By preaching hatred, lies and begging for money.

    --- Xnews/5.04.25
    * Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)
  • From TIM RICHARDSON@1:123/140 to ROSS SAUER on Sat Jan 2 06:58:00 2010
    On 01-01-10, ROSS SAUER said to TIM RICHARDSON:



    His brat...I mean son is carrying on in Jerry's footsteps, complete
    with RS>hatred, lies, and constantly begging for money.


    Obviously, the absolute irony of someone like *you* typing your
    sentence above completely escapes you.


    You go after Jesus as though you must drag him, also, down to *your*
    level in order to feel good about yourself, in much the same way you
    do others.


    How do you go from my complaints about "God told me it's ok to get rich RS>from my pulpit" preachers to Jesus?


    You aren't `discussing' religion......you are slamming `religionists'.


    There is nothing wrong with being `rich'. Nowhere in the bible can you point
    to a single admonishment by `God'....or `Jesus' against being rich, or even well-to-do.


    I simply posted an article about a controversy, where two sets of RS>preachers say two different things, one groups saying Jesus was poor,
    the other saying Jesus was rich.


    Jesus was neither one. Jesus had a good trade, and up till he began his ministry he made a decent living at it.


    Jerry Falwell himself began his career using his electronic pulpit to RS>defend racism and segregation.


    Again....you are focusing on a `person' who wasn't exactly the ideal of a `man of God'.



    When it came to a choice between lowering the big fat salary he had his RS>church give him, and taking money from a cult leader, (Moon,) who
    Falwell had condemned, Falwell took the Moon money.


    You are tossing out firebrands against someone you intensely disliked, disparaging his offspring as well, and (more likely than not) probably don't know what you are talking about (not a new situation for you).



    Now that he's died, Falwell's son has taken over the Falwell franchise, RS>and is running it just like Daddy did.



    By preaching hatred, lies and begging for money.


    You focus far too often on the bad *you* see in others......you should focus a little closer to home....and deal with yourself, first, before trying to
    spread your sense of moral outrage at others.





    ---
    *Durango b301 #PE*
    * Origin: Doc's Place BBS Fido Since 1991 docsplace.tzo.com (1:123/140)
  • From Ross Sauer@1:123/789 to TIM RICHARDSON on Sat Jan 2 13:42:19 2010
    "TIM RICHARDSON -> ROSS SAUER" <1:123/140> wrote in news:10666$HOLYSMOKE@JamNNTPd:

    You go after Jesus as though you must drag him, also, down to
    *your* TR> level in order to feel good about yourself, in much the
    same way you TR> do others.

    How do you go from my complaints about "God told me it's ok to get
    rich RS>from my pulpit" preachers to Jesus?

    You aren't `discussing' religion......you are slamming `religionists'.

    Who deserve slamming.

    There is nothing wrong with being `rich'. Nowhere in the bible can you point to a single admonishment by `God'....or `Jesus' against being
    rich, or even well-to-do.

    I never said there was.
    But didn't Jesus tell a rich guy to give everything to the poor and follow
    him, but the rich guy wouldn't?

    I simply posted an article about a controversy, where two sets of
    preachers say two different things, one groups saying Jesus was
    poor, RS>the other saying Jesus was rich.

    Jesus was neither one. Jesus had a good trade, and up till he began
    his ministry he made a decent living at it.

    Maybe.

    Jerry Falwell himself began his career using his electronic pulpit
    to RS>defend racism and segregation.

    Again....you are focusing on a `person' who wasn't exactly the ideal
    of a `man of God'.

    You kidding?
    Even Hollywood could never come up with a character like Falwell. Self-righteous, hypocritical, theocratic, serial liar, greedy, and those
    are his good points.

    When it came to a choice between lowering the big fat salary he had
    his RS>church give him, and taking money from a cult leader, (Moon,)
    who RS>Falwell had condemned, Falwell took the Moon money.

    You are tossing out firebrands against someone you intensely disliked,

    Gee, now why would I dislike Falwell? (sarcasm off)

    disparaging his offspring as well, and (more likely than not) probably don't know what you are talking about (not a new situation for you).

    Look it up.

    Now that he's died, Falwell's son has taken over the Falwell
    franchise, RS>and is running it just like Daddy did.

    By preaching hatred, lies and begging for money.

    You focus far too often on the bad *you* see in others......you should focus a little closer to home....and deal with yourself, first, before trying to spread your sense of moral outrage at others.

    I'm not a national figure, begging for money on TV, encouraging Ugandan politicians to pass a "death penalty for gays" law, trying to get
    "Christian nation" laws passed in this country, using religion to justify unreasoning hatred.

    Christians don't molest children. HOMOs do. - Tim Richardson

    Why you ignorant faggot-lovin' idiot. **HOLYSMOKE** is not only a
    `FLAME' echo, it harbors suck-dick faggot-lovin' idiots like you.
    - Tim Richardson

    --- Xnews/5.04.25
    * Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)
  • From Jeff Binkley@1:226/600 to Tim Richardson on Sat Jan 2 16:02:00 2010




    His brat...I mean son is carrying on in Jerry's footsteps,
    complete TR> with RS>hatred, lies, and constantly begging for money.


    Obviously, the absolute irony of someone like *you* typing your
    sentence above completely escapes you.


    You go after Jesus as though you must drag him, also, down to
    *your* level in order to feel good about yourself, in much the
    same way you do others.


    How do you go from my complaints about "God told me it's ok to get TR>RS>rich from my pulpit" preachers to Jesus?


    You aren't `discussing' religion......you are slamming
    `religionists'.


    There is nothing wrong with being `rich'. Nowhere in the bible can
    you point to a single admonishment by `God'....or `Jesus' against
    being rich, or even well-to-do.


    Correct but it does talk a lot about the evils of envy. Sauer and the
    left is all about envy and class warfare.


    Jeff

    CMPQwk 1.42-21 9999
    Carbon Dioxide makes up just 390 parts per million of atmosphere ....

    --- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10
    * Origin: (1:226/600)
  • From JOHNJWILSON@1:123/140 to JEFF BINKLEY on Sat Jan 2 19:04:12 2010

    Correct but it does talk a lot about the evils of envy. Sauer and the
    left is all about envy and class warfare.

    Ah, so THAT is what we are all about. Thanks!

    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Doc's Place BBS Fido Since 1991 docsplace.tzo.com (1:123/140)
  • From Ross Sauer@1:123/789 to JOHNJWILSON on Sat Jan 2 20:11:46 2010
    "JOHNJWILSON -> JEFF BINKLEY" <1:123/140> wrote in news:10669 $HOLYSMOKE@JamNNTPd:

    Correct but it does talk a lot about the evils of envy. Sauer and the
    left is all about envy and class warfare.

    Ah, so THAT is what we are all about. Thanks!

    Jeff speaks of "class" warfare, especially since he gleefuly wrote about
    how he would bring marshmallows to roast over us heathens roasting in hell.

    --- Xnews/5.04.25
    * Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)
  • From Jeff Binkley@1:226/600 to Ross Sauer on Sat Jan 2 21:33:00 2010




    Correct but it does talk a lot about the evils of envy. Sauer
    and the left is all about envy and class warfare.

    Ah, so THAT is what we are all about. Thanks!

    Jeff speaks of "class" warfare, especially since he gleefuly wrote
    about how he would bring marshmallows to roast over us heathens
    roasting in hell.

    Just one heathen, you.


    Jeff

    CMPQwk 1.42-21 9999
    Patriotism is not who can leak the most Secret documents to the NY Times ...

    --- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10
    * Origin: (1:226/600)
  • From Ross Sauer@1:123/789 to Jeff Binkley on Sat Jan 2 23:53:10 2010
    "Jeff Binkley -> Ross Sauer" <1:226/600> wrote in news:10671$HOLYSMOKE@JamNNTPd:

    Correct but it does talk a lot about the evils of envy. Sauer
    and the left is all about envy and class warfare.

    Ah, so THAT is what we are all about. Thanks!

    Jeff speaks of "class" warfare, especially since he gleefuly wrote
    about how he would bring marshmallows to roast over us heathens
    roasting in hell.

    Just one heathen, you.

    Lie.
    You weren't writing to me when you wrote this here:

    When I die I think I am going to request to be buried with a
    long stick. That way I can toast marshmellows over your fire.
    - Jeff Binkley

    --- Xnews/5.04.25
    * Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)