• Welfare

    From Ross Cassell@1:123/456 to mark lewis on Sun Oct 17 12:33:07 2010
    Hello mark!

    17 Oct 10 01:09, you wrote to Bob Ackley:

    in the same breath, do not believe those stats about X% are unemployed because they are always short...

    The unemployment figures released by the labor pencil pushers do not include those who are no longer eligible for bennies or havent filed for them.

    i've been unemployed numerous times
    for several years in some cases and have never gone down and been
    added to the statistics so i know for a fact that they are always at
    least one entity short... welfare helps those who are willing to go
    that route but there are many others who do not and will not "go
    there" for their own reasons...

    The problem with welfare is it creates a dependency, and one develops a rationale that the reason they got onto it, is reason enough to perpetually stay on it.

    The person I directed the question too, having not had an employment history long enough (40 qtrs) to remotely qualify for Social Security Benefits and he is older than I, has to go out and get Federal Welfare. (Yet has many luxuries that those with jobs cant afford). The rub here is, this welfare wanker criticizes people who have not approached his own level of failure, for the things they do or have did to earn a living.

    To me the equation is simple, if you are living off of the taxes of others, keep your fuggin mouth shut as to the methods others have used to earn that taxed income. (everything in the world of legal of course)

    There are other things to add in, but the recipient of welfare should show more
    humility.

    ==
    Ross
    Fidonet Feeds Or Fidonet In Your Newsreader: http://www.easternstar.info E-mail: ross(at)cassell(dot)us | Other Places: http://links.cassell.us

    I can see November from my House!

    And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you -
    ask what you can do for your country.. JFK (Right Wing Propoganda)

    ... The opinions expressed are not approved by the DNC, ACLU or the NAACP!
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20060121
    * Origin: The Eastern Star - Spartanburg, SC USA (1:123/456)
  • From Bob Ackley@1:300/3 to mark lewis on Sun Oct 17 06:22:40 2010
    Replying to a message of mark lewis to Bob Ackley:

    What is it like to be on welfare and what does it do for your
    self-esteem?

    Apparently it beats working for a living...

    not everyone without a job is on welfare but they can still find ways
    to provide for their needs... this does not mean that they do not
    "work" for their "living"... contrary to what the gov't believes...

    in the same breath, do not believe those stats about X% are unemployed because they are always short... i've been unemployed numerous times
    for several years in some cases and have never gone down and been
    added to the statistics so i know for a fact that they are always at
    least one entity short... welfare helps those who are willing to go
    that route but there are many others who do not and will not "go
    there" for their own reasons...

    But you did not and most do not make welfare their lifetime career. Some do. I've been unemployed, and have drawn unemployment (I'm not eligible for welfare due to my military retirement annuity). At the moment I've been unemployed for just shy of two years, fortunately I'm eligible for and draw Social Security to
    pay
    the bills (that aforementioned annuity makes the house and insurance payments) -
    so I can say I'm retired. although not by my choice.

    I can remember my parents griping in *1960* about second and third generations of people living on California's at-the-time quite generous welfare system. Back
    in those days states provided varying levels of benefits and people were moving to California simply to get on the welfare system there, and the state attempted
    to place a residency time requirement before one would become eligible - and lost
    a federal lawsuit over it. The feds gradually took over the entire welfare system -
    mainly by mandating that states provide certain levels of benefits and eligibility,
    not by paying for it. The federal Medicaid program is even worse off than Medicare WRT funding - and has been for years.

    --- FleetStreet 1.19+
    * Origin: Bob's Boneyard, Emerson, Iowa (1:300/3)
  • From Richard Webb@1:116/901 to Bob Ackley on Sun Oct 17 14:48:36 2010
    HI Bob,

    not everyone without a job is on welfare but they can still find ways
    to provide for their needs... this does not mean that they do not
    "work" for their "living"... contrary to what the gov't believes...

    OF course, because many who were forced to use the system
    found the means tests and other hoops too onerous, because
    once they submitted they'd never be able to escape.

    Some do. I've been unemployed, and have drawn unemployment (I'm not eligible for welfare due to my military retirement annuity). At the
    moment I've been unemployed for just shy of two years, fortunately
    I'm eligible for and draw Social Security to pay
    the bills (that aforementioned annuity makes the house and insurance payments) - so I can say I'm retired. although not by my choice.

    RIght, and some who do find themselves in a trap they can't
    get out of.
    SEe below.

    I can remember my parents griping in *1960* about second and third generations of people living on California's at-the-time quite
    generous welfare system. Back
    in those days states provided varying levels of benefits and people
    were moving to California simply to get on the welfare system there,
    and the state attempted to place a residency time requirement before
    one would become eligible - and lost
    a federal lawsuit over it. The feds gradually took over the entire
    welfare system -
    mainly by mandating that states provide certain levels of benefits
    and eligibility,
    not by paying for it. The federal Medicaid program is even worse
    off than Medicare WRT funding - and has been for years.

    MIght have been generous payments to the baby factories, but for those who went
    blind the requirements were onerous. IF
    you wanted to, for example, return to working as an
    automechanic, the cost of your tools, etc. counted against
    you. such programs, before federal standardization were
    administered by the counties, and you were under the
    capricious thumb of a possibly ignorant socialworker. As
    soon as you give somebody control over somebody else's life, especially when that somebody is an otherwise powerless
    paper shuffler then you've got a problem. Federal
    standardization, at least in the aid to the blind programs
    made the rules the same for everybody. IN other programs it was partially inacted to stem the tide of migration from one place to another.

    IF you want to read up on the subject from the point of view of intelligent folks who found themselves as "beneficiaries" (victims) of the system, read HOpe Deferred by Jacobus
    TenBroek.

    tenBroek was a law professor at UC. Berkeley, and blind
    since he was a small boy as the result of an accident.
    Real trouble is, what was supposed to happen didn't work as
    reliably as they thought. ONe was still subject to the
    whims of whatever "caseworker" one had to deal with. SOme
    weren't really too clued up on the fact that so-called
    disabled folks were still able to be productive, unless they were pushing somebody into a menial dead-end job which
    wouldn't really pull them out of poverty. IT doesn't matter how much you patch
    the system to try to eliminate this if
    the socialworkers in the field don't understand, and
    evenhandedly apply the rules.

    THen there's the fact that the system is far more generous
    to the babymakers, and too many loopholes have allowed those who should not be qualified to receive benefits. Iow the
    system is still extremely dysfunctional and broken.

    Regards,
    Richard
    --- timEd 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: (1:116/901)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Ross Cassell on Sun Oct 17 17:57:35 2010

    in the same breath, do not believe those stats about X% are unemployed because they are always short...

    The unemployment figures released by the labor pencil pushers do
    not include those who are no longer eligible for bennies or havent
    filed for them.

    that's exactly my point... when they say "the unemployment rate is a X%" i know
    that it is flat out wrong ;)

    i've been unemployed numerous times for several years in some
    cases and have never gone down and been added to the statistics so
    i know for a fact that they are always at least one entity
    short... welfare helps those who are willing to go that route but
    there are many others who do not and will not "go there" for their
    own reasons...

    The problem with welfare is it creates a dependency, and one
    develops a rationale that the reason they got onto it, is reason
    enough to perpetually stay on it.

    how does it create a dependency?? if one wanted to get off of it, they could unless they were on it due to extenuating circumstances... medical situations would be one of those... extreme obesity might be one medical situation... cronic fatigue syndrome might be another...

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From Ross Cassell@1:123/456 to mark lewis on Sun Oct 17 19:23:47 2010
    Hello mark!

    17 Oct 10 17:57, you wrote to me:

    The problem with welfare is it creates a dependency, and one
    develops a rationale that the reason they got onto it, is reason
    enough to perpetually stay on it.

    how does it create a dependency?? if one wanted to get off of it, they could unless they were on it due to

    The system gets abused, its easier to walk out to the mailbox to get the check,
    than to actually go out and earn one.

    extenuating circumstances...
    medical situations would be one of those... extreme obesity might be
    one medical situation... cronic fatigue syndrome might be another...

    One mans disability is another mans scratch.

    ==
    Ross
    Fidonet Feeds Or Fidonet In Your Newsreader: http://www.easternstar.info E-mail: ross(at)cassell(dot)us | Other Places: http://links.cassell.us

    I can see November from my House!

    And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you -
    ask what you can do for your country.. JFK (Right Wing Propoganda)

    ... The opinions expressed are not approved by the DNC, ACLU or the NAACP!
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20060121
    * Origin: The Eastern Star - Spartanburg, SC USA (1:123/456)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Bob Ackley on Sun Oct 17 19:58:06 2010

    in the same breath, do not believe those stats about X% are unemployed because they are always short... i've been unemployed numerous times
    for several years in some cases and have never gone down and been
    added to the statistics so i know for a fact that they are always at
    least one entity short... welfare helps those who are willing to go
    that route but there are many others who do not and will not "go
    there" for their own reasons...

    But you did not and most do not make welfare their lifetime career.

    how do you know that i haven't? i've never spoken of such but still ;)

    Some do. I've been unemployed, and have drawn unemployment (I'm not eligible for welfare due to my military retirement annuity).

    i don't believe i've ever drawn unemployment even in those times when i was qualified for it... i did draw foodstamp at one time due to a medical problem, though... and the only real reason i went for the foodstamps was because family
    members pointed out to me that i had been paying into the system all these years so that if and when i did need the services, i wouldn't be "leeching"...

    FWIW: i don't understand everyone else whining about folk using the services that they have paid into for so long and never will use... are they simply throwing their money aside? have they no charity in their bones? some of these folk are "religious" to a point and yet they complain when others can and do utilize the services afforded them... certainly they don't complain about their
    pastor and their family who live off of the churches they minister to...

    At the moment I've been unemployed for just shy of two years,

    i'm at three years now...

    fortunately I'm eligible for and draw Social Security to pay
    the bills (that aforementioned annuity makes the house and
    insurance payments) - so I can say I'm retired. although not by my
    choice.

    i don't qualify for anything, really... never had any kind of health insurance,
    either... always seemed to work for the small mom'n'pop companies and there never really was any type of benefits of any kind... decent pay for the most part but that didn't ever really go far enough and none of it helps now...

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Ross Cassell on Sun Oct 17 20:11:36 2010

    The problem with welfare is it creates a dependency, and one
    develops a rationale that the reason they got onto it, is reason
    enough to perpetually stay on it.

    how does it create a dependency?? if one wanted to get off of it, they could unless they were on it due to

    The system gets abused, its easier to walk out to the mailbox to
    get the check, than to actually go out and earn one.

    but that does not create any kind of dependency... they can still get off of it
    if they want to and/or are able to...

    extenuating circumstances...
    medical situations would be one of those... extreme obesity might be
    one medical situation... cronic fatigue syndrome might be another...

    One mans disability is another mans scratch.

    only for those that take advantage of the system and play it... i've seen much too much of it over the years... heck i could have easily done the same but never did preferring to go without than to "play the game"... deity knows that i've been without for a long time and i'll still prefer to go without rather than play some stupid game for the benefit and/or enjoyment of others... i certainly never look down on those who DO choose to use the system that is in place... none of us are any better than the next no matter how hard one works or doesn't or what programs one participats in or not or even if one is religions or not... and the stupid political swipes that get slung about are lower than stupid and in many cases are really nothing more than someone trying
    to make themselves feel better by putting others down for some reason or another...

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From Ross Cassell@1:123/456 to mark lewis on Sun Oct 17 20:43:33 2010
    Hello mark!

    17 Oct 10 19:58, you wrote to Bob Ackley:

    FWIW: i don't understand everyone else whining about folk using the services that they have paid into for so long and never will use...

    When the system gets abused by those who didnt pay into it?

    ==
    Ross
    Fidonet Feeds Or Fidonet In Your Newsreader: http://www.easternstar.info E-mail: ross(at)cassell(dot)us | Other Places: http://links.cassell.us

    I can see November from my House!

    And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you -
    ask what you can do for your country.. JFK (Right Wing Propoganda)

    ... January 20th 2013 - The end of an ERROR!
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20060121
    * Origin: The Eastern Star - Spartanburg, SC USA (1:123/456)
  • From Ross Cassell@1:123/456 to mark lewis on Sun Oct 17 20:46:01 2010
    Hello mark!

    17 Oct 10 20:11, you wrote to me:

    only for those that take advantage of the system and play it... i've
    seen much too much of it over the years... heck i could have easily
    done the same but never did preferring to go without than to "play the game"... deity knows that i've been without for a long time and i'll
    still prefer to go without rather than play some stupid game for the benefit and/or enjoyment of others... i certainly never look down on
    those who DO choose to use the system that is in place... none of us
    are any better than the next no matter how hard one works or doesn't
    or what programs one participats in or not or even if one is religions
    or not... and the stupid political swipes that get slung about are
    lower than stupid and in many cases are really nothing more than
    someone trying to make themselves feel better by putting others down
    for some reason or another...

    Well from my point of view, for the person I had initially directed the remarks
    to, I do take exception to him criticizing another tax paying participant for having run a newspaper that didnt have the editorial slant he liked.

    Someone living off of the taxpayers, and SSI is from the general fund, ie welfare, he should not be deeming someone who is a taxpayer a failure.

    Too me, it is about having room to talk.

    ==
    Ross
    Fidonet Feeds Or Fidonet In Your Newsreader: http://www.easternstar.info E-mail: ross(at)cassell(dot)us | Other Places: http://links.cassell.us

    I can see November from my House!

    And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you -
    ask what you can do for your country.. JFK (Right Wing Propoganda)

    ... Want to be and do evil, become a Democrat.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20060121
    * Origin: The Eastern Star - Spartanburg, SC USA (1:123/456)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Bob Ackley on Fri Oct 22 18:23:21 2010
    Replying to a message of mark lewis to Jeff Binkley:

    once it is given to the government, it is the government's money to do with as it sees fit... once it is out of your hands, it is "out of
    your hands"... think about it ;)

    Money is given to the government only in the sense that it is given
    to a mugger - pay up or else.

    God only insists on 10% to run the whole d*mn planet, the
    government should be satisfied with half of that to run one
    country, but it takes about thirty - or more - percent.

    interesting analogies and comparisons... some things that i will have to contemplate on...

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Ross Cassell on Mon Oct 18 15:33:21 2010

    FWIW: i don't understand everyone else whining about folk using the services that they have paid into for so long and never will use...

    When the system gets abused by those who didnt pay into it?

    why is that abuse? there is nothing that i'm aware of that says anyone who participates in is must have paid something into it...

    why is it abuse when they can use the monies that you have paid in that you'll never use?

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From Ross Cassell@1:123/456 to mark lewis on Mon Oct 18 19:53:20 2010
    Hello mark!

    18 Oct 10 15:33, you wrote to me:

    FWIW: i don't understand everyone else whining about folk using
    the services that they have paid into for so long and never will
    use...

    When the system gets abused by those who didnt pay into it?

    why is that abuse? there is nothing that i'm aware of that says anyone
    who participates in is must have paid something into it...

    why is it abuse when they can use the monies that you have paid in
    that you'll never use?

    Then leave it in my paycheck so I can use it.

    Welfare should be a hand up, not a hand out.

    ==
    Ross
    Fidonet Feeds Or Fidonet In Your Newsreader: http://www.easternstar.info E-mail: ross(at)cassell(dot)us | Other Places: http://links.cassell.us

    I can see November from my House!

    And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you -
    ask what you can do for your country.. JFK (Right Wing Propoganda)

    ... Without high taxes and welfare, Liberals are nothing!
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20060121
    * Origin: The Eastern Star - Spartanburg, SC USA (1:123/456)
  • From Jeff Binkley@1:226/600 to Ross Cassell on Mon Oct 18 19:11:00 2010




    FWIW: i don't understand everyone else whining about folk using
    the services that they have paid into for so long and never will
    use...

    When the system gets abused by those who didnt pay into it?

    why is that abuse? there is nothing that i'm aware of that says
    anyone who participates in is must have paid something into it...

    why is it abuse when they can use the monies that you have paid in
    that you'll never use?

    I wonder whose money he thinks funds the government and these social
    programs ?


    Jeff

    CMPQwk 1.42-21 9999
    Stop the Democrat party oil embargo ....

    --- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10
    * Origin: (1:226/600)
  • From Ross Cassell@1:123/456 to Jeff Binkley on Mon Oct 18 20:18:08 2010
    Hello Jeff!

    18 Oct 10 19:11, you wrote to me:

    why is it abuse when they can use the monies that you have paid in
    that you'll never use?

    I wonder whose money he thinks funds the government and these social programs ?

    The tooth fairy?

    I am shocked to think he would feel I wouldnt need it, or being okay with having to work so others dont have to..


    ==
    Ross
    Fidonet Feeds Or Fidonet In Your Newsreader: http://www.easternstar.info E-mail: ross(at)cassell(dot)us | Other Places: http://links.cassell.us

    I can see November from my House!

    And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you -
    ask what you can do for your country.. JFK (Right Wing Propoganda)

    ... Want to be and do evil, become a Democrat.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20060121
    * Origin: The Eastern Star - Spartanburg, SC USA (1:123/456)
  • From Bob Ackley@1:300/3 to mark lewis on Mon Oct 18 16:44:20 2010
    Replying to a message of mark lewis to Ross Cassell:

    FWIW: i don't understand everyone else whining about folk using the
    services that they have paid into for so long and never will use...

    When the system gets abused by those who didnt pay into it?

    why is that abuse? there is nothing that i'm aware of that says anyone
    who participates in is must have paid something into it...

    why is it abuse when they can use the monies that you have paid in
    that you'll never use?

    IMO one way to eleiminate the welfare 'problem' is to put a firm time limit
    on how long one may draw it - say one year. After that period one would
    have the option to move to a government owned housing area (condo, apartment, closed military base, whatever) and receive government issued food (in dining halls, no kitchens in the units) and clothing. If one - or one's children - misbehaves or trashes their quarters, they're on the street. The object is to take the money out of the system, and replace it with the necessities of life. Recipients are perfectly free to obtain employment - and pay rent of, say, 40% of their net income (sort of like the residents of the various 'St Peter's waiting
    rooms' aka 'assisted living facilities for the elderly' pay) - until they make enough
    money to move out into the economy.

    --- FleetStreet 1.19+
    * Origin: Bob's Boneyard, Emerson, Iowa (1:300/3)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Ross Cassell on Mon Oct 18 21:08:25 2010

    FWIW: i don't understand everyone else whining about folk using
    the services that they have paid into for so long and never will
    use...

    When the system gets abused by those who didnt pay into it?

    why is that abuse? there is nothing that i'm aware of that says anyone
    who participates in is must have paid something into it...

    you didn't answer this question...

    why is it abuse when they can use the monies that you have paid in
    that you'll never use?

    Then leave it in my paycheck so I can use it.

    i can't do anything about that... but you can ;) if you don't want to pay it, the go under the table... but then, you loose out on a lot of other stuff...

    Welfare should be a hand up, not a hand out.

    social welfare is governmental provision of economic assistance to persons in need... how, when and where it is applied is not up to you or me... the politicians put it in place... the only way we might change it is if we become politicians and i don't think that either of us wants to do that ;)

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From TIM RICHARDSON@1:123/140 to MARK LEWIS on Tue Oct 19 06:11:00 2010
    On 10-18-10, MARK LEWIS said to ROSS CASSELL:


    FWIW: i don't understand everyone else whining about folk using the services that they have paid into for so long and never will use...


    When the system gets abused by those who didnt pay into it?


    why is that abuse? there is nothing that i'm aware of that says anyone who ML>participates in is must have paid something into it...


    why is it abuse when they can use the monies that you have paid in that ML>you'll never use?



    Since the dawn of Mankind......there was no free lunch.


    If Man wished to eat....he had to `work' for his food.



    Along came the democrats who invented `free lunch'.


    But....the group for whom lunch is 'free' do not assist in the work that
    `pays' for the free lunch. They only `eat' the free lunch.


    The group that `does' work to pay for the lunch, have to work even more to pay for their own lunch, as well as the lunch given to the group that does `not' work. Which means the cost of lunch has gone up for the group who works and `pays' the lunch bill.


    Years go by.............and during those years, the democrats greatly increase the group who eat for free but do not pay, which means the group who `do' pay is greatly DE-creased.


    So that now......the group who don't pay for the lunch but eat for free.... is growing larger than the group who pay for everybody's lunch. And lunch is even more expensive, because the democrats have added several garnishes to the lunch.


    Do the math........at some point....nobody's gonna be able to eat lunch, because there won't be enough coming in to pay for it.





    ---
    *Durango b301 #PE*
    * Origin: Doc's Place BBS Fido Since 1991 docsplace.tzo.com (1:123/140)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to TIM RICHARDSON on Tue Oct 19 11:00:13 2010

    FWIW: i don't understand everyone else whining about folk using the services that they have paid into for so long and never will use...

    When the system gets abused by those who didnt pay into it?

    why is that abuse? there is nothing that i'm aware of that says anyone who ML>participates in is must have paid something into it...

    why is it abuse when they can use the monies that you have paid in that ML>you'll never use?

    Since the dawn of Mankind......there was no free lunch.

    [trim]

    Do the math........at some point....nobody's gonna be able to eat
    lunch, because there won't be enough coming in to pay for it.

    nice story but it still does not answer the questions i posed... everyone who is working has to pay into the system... if they do not use the monies they paid in by participating in the system, then why cannot others use those monies?? if you allow no one can to them, then you are wasting your monies and showing a very negative charitable side...

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Ross Cassell on Tue Oct 19 11:18:02 2010

    Well from my point of view, for the person I had initially directed
    the remarks to, I do take exception to him criticizing another tax
    paying participant for having run a newspaper that didnt have the editorial slant he liked.

    Someone living off of the taxpayers, and SSI is from the general
    fund, ie welfare, he should not be deeming someone who is a
    taxpayer a failure.

    why not? i say call a spade a spade no matter who you are...

    Too me, it is about having room to talk.

    that's a bullshit argument... who says that person doesn't have said room?? everyone has the room to talk, period.

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Jeff Binkley on Tue Oct 19 11:19:29 2010

    FWIW: i don't understand everyone else whining about folk using
    the services that they have paid into for so long and never will
    use...

    When the system gets abused by those who didnt pay into it?

    why is that abuse? there is nothing that i'm aware of that says
    anyone who participates in is must have paid something into it...

    why is it abuse when they can use the monies that you have paid in
    that you'll never use?

    I wonder whose money he thinks funds the government and these
    social programs ?

    what makes you think that ross knows the answer to that question?? if you want to know what i think or know then ask me instead of talking out the side of your face to another like that...

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Ross Cassell on Tue Oct 19 11:22:00 2010

    why is it abuse when they can use the monies that you have paid in
    that you'll never use?

    I wonder whose money he thinks funds the government and these social programs ?

    The tooth fairy?

    ross, you know better than that...

    I am shocked to think he would feel I wouldnt need it,

    who said i feel that you would/do not need it? i asked you how them using that which you have given and no longer control is abuse...

    or being okay with having to work so others dont have to..

    i never even attempted to approach this and still won't... i was addressing the
    supposed abuse issue and asking yo how it is abusive for them to use what you have given to be used... you cannot pick and choose... everyone gets an equal shot...

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Bob Ackley on Tue Oct 19 11:30:42 2010

    IMO one way to eleiminate the welfare 'problem' is to put a firm
    time limit on how long one may draw it - say one year. [...]

    that may or may not work... there is a variation of that being done in several places... i'm not aware of the numbers before and/or after so cannot say how they look...

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From Ross Cassell@1:123/456 to mark lewis on Tue Oct 19 19:36:13 2010
    Hello mark!

    19 Oct 10 11:18, you wrote to me:

    Someone living off of the taxpayers, and SSI is from the general
    fund, ie welfare, he should not be deeming someone who is a
    taxpayer a failure.

    why not? i say call a spade a spade no matter who you are...

    No, I am referring to:

    Person A: Someone earning a living within the confines of the law, paying taxes, the whole nine yards.

    Person B: Someone collecting a check from the govt in the form of welfare, pays
    no taxes..

    Sorry Mark, person B has no standing or right to critique person A.

    Maybe you were raised different from I?

    Society may have deemed welfare a necessary evil, but welfare is not a badge of
    honor and anyone drawing on it, should be humble.

    A bank robber has no business calling a shoplifter a thief.

    Someone on public assistance has no business calling another who has never been
    on assistance, a failure.

    Its that simple.

    ==
    Ross
    Fidonet Feeds Or Fidonet In Your Newsreader: http://www.easternstar.info E-mail: ross(at)cassell(dot)us | Other Places: http://links.cassell.us

    I can see November from my House!

    And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you -
    ask what you can do for your country.. JFK (Right Wing Propoganda)

    ... January 20th 2013 - The end of an ERROR!
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20060121
    * Origin: The Eastern Star - Spartanburg, SC USA (1:123/456)
  • From TIM RICHARDSON@1:123/140 to MARK LEWIS on Tue Oct 19 18:40:00 2010
    On 10-18-10, MARK LEWIS said to ROSS CASSELL:


    FWIW: i don't understand everyone else whining about folk using the services that they have paid into for so long and never will use...


    When the system gets abused by those who didnt pay into it?


    why is that abuse? there is nothing that i'm aware of that says anyone who ML>participates in is must have paid something into it...


    why is it abuse when they can use the monies that you have paid in that ML>you'll never use?



    I don't have a whole lot of time that early in the morning when I first
    replied to this. Let me take this a little further.


    Everybody who works pays some of their money earned as taxes. And in return we recieve from the government that collects those taxes, certain values: a military that keeps us from being attacked by a foreign army, enforcement of certain basic laws against criminals, etc.


    The money people earn for themselves they use for their own support, and the support of their family and loved ones.


    The money the government takes in taxes they have been mis-using. They have been giving some of that money that comes out of the pockets of those who
    work, to people who `don't' work. Thats about the same thing as `wealth re- distribution'.


    They take from those who produce.....and give to those who do `not' produce. And they do so at the point of a gun. If you don't believe that....just try
    not paying your taxes for awhile, and watch how fast some armed government agents show up at your door, handcuff you, and haul you away to face charges.


    So..... some people come up with a need (those who don't work but
    must eat and be housed) gets laid on the shoulders of those who `do' work, in the form of an obligation, enforced at the point of a gun.


    In truth, the fact that someone developes a need does not automatically create an obligation on the rest of us to fill that need. At least it isn't supposed to.


    There are those in our society who have been nothing but burdens on the rest
    of us all their lives. Their entire employment history is't just dismal, in some cases its non-existant. They are the failures of society, the ones who
    are too lazy to work, or have some piss-poor excuse for why they don't (their back hurts.....or they get headaches....whatever).


    They have learned to scam the system, some of them, making a lively-hood of living on the dole.





    ---
    *Durango b301 #PE*
    * Origin: Doc's Place BBS Fido Since 1991 docsplace.tzo.com (1:123/140)
  • From Jeff Binkley@1:226/600 to Mark Lewis on Tue Oct 19 21:44:00 2010



    FWIW: i don't understand everyone else whining about folk
    using the services that they have paid into for so long and
    never will use...

    When the system gets abused by those who didnt pay into it?

    why is that abuse? there is nothing that i'm aware of that says ml>ml>anyone who participates in is must have paid something into it...

    why is it abuse when they can use the monies that you have paid in ml>ml>that you'll never use?

    I wonder whose money he thinks funds the government and these
    social programs ?

    what makes you think that ross knows the answer to that question?? if
    you want to know what i think or know then ask me instead of talking
    out the side of your face to another like that...

    Feel free to answer the question. You've waded this far into the water.


    Jeff

    CMPQwk 1.42-21 9999
    Democrats -- The party of economic destruction ....

    --- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10
    * Origin: (1:226/600)
  • From Jeff Binkley@1:226/600 to Mark Lewis on Tue Oct 19 21:50:00 2010


    FWIW: i don't understand everyone else whining about folk using
    the services that they have paid into for so long and never will
    use...

    When the system gets abused by those who didnt pay into it?

    why is that abuse? there is nothing that i'm aware of that says ml>ML>anyone who participates in is must have paid something into it...

    why is it abuse when they can use the monies that you have paid in ml>ML>that you'll never use?

    Since the dawn of Mankind......there was no free lunch.

    [trim]

    Do the math........at some point....nobody's gonna be able to
    eat lunch, because there won't be enough coming in to pay for
    it.

    nice story but it still does not answer the questions i posed...
    everyone who is working has to pay into the system... if they do not
    use the monies they paid in by participating in the system, then why ml>cannot others use those monies?? if you allow no one can to them,
    then you are wasting your monies and showing a very negative
    charitable side...

    The government is not in the charity business.

    If the extra money stays in the system then the government decides who
    gets the excess. If the government returns the money to the people,
    then the people decide. The choice for me is easy. I trust the people
    over the government to make wise decisions with their money.

    Jeff

    CMPQwk 1.42-21 9999
    Progressive taxation is economic slavery for those who succeed .....

    --- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10
    * Origin: (1:226/600)
  • From Jeff Binkley@1:226/600 to Mark Lewis on Tue Oct 19 21:52:00 2010




    IMO one way to eleiminate the welfare 'problem' is to put a firm
    time limit on how long one may draw it - say one year. [...]

    that may or may not work... there is a variation of that being done
    in several places... i'm not aware of the numbers before and/or after
    so cannot say how they look...

    It worked in the mid 90s and has worked before. If people have the
    choice of starving or working, I trust they will make the right choice.
    If we took money out of the equation, what would they do ?


    Jeff

    CMPQwk 1.42-21 9999
    Democrats -- The party of trickle-up poverty ....

    --- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10
    * Origin: (1:226/600)
  • From TIM RICHARDSON@1:123/140 to MARK LEWIS on Wed Oct 20 05:29:00 2010
    On 10-19-10, MARK LEWIS said to TIM RICHARDSON:


    Do the math........at some point....nobody's gonna be able to eat
    lunch, because there won't be enough coming in to pay for it.


    nice story but it still does not answer the questions i posed... everyone ML>who is working has to pay into the system... if they do not use the monies ML>they paid in by participating in the system, then why cannot others use ML>those monies??


    I and many other people pay auto insurance. I've been with the same company
    for over twenty years, and had one accident that was the other guy's fault.
    His insurance company paid to have our vehicle fixed.


    So......you could say that I've paid those monies into the system by participating, but never `used' it.


    Why should someone else who has *not* paid into the system get to use what *I* paid into it? Why should *I* have to pay for someone's accident who has no insurance, and has *never* had any?


    And its the same with the Social Security monies I've paid in all these years. I paid in for many years, enough to be recieving a fairly good monthly return for it.


    But my return would be much higher if the monies weren't also going to support people who do not work. Who whine about headaches, or sore backs. Not to mention all the other boondoggles those monies have been stretched out to pay for.


    if you allow no one can to them, then you are wasting your
    monies and showing a very negative charitable side...


    The money is only being `wasted' by the politicians who have control over it. Any time you have politicians controlling large sums of money that belong to the people they are supposed to be looking out for, as well as governing.... you get a whole lot of `governing', and very little `looking out for'.


    It isn't the `governed' who waste the monies.....its the politicians.


    As for a `negative charitable side'.......the last time I looked, `charitable' was a matter of personal choice. What the government does with much of the monies we pay into the system isn't on a `charitable' level.....it is `mandate'....enforced at the point of a gun.


    That isn't charity.....thats theft!


    ---
    *Durango b301 #PE*
    * Origin: Doc's Place BBS Fido Since 1991 docsplace.tzo.com (1:123/140)
  • From Bob Ackley@1:300/3 to Ross Cassell on Wed Oct 20 07:00:30 2010
    Replying to a message of Ross Cassell to mark lewis:

    Hello mark!

    18 Oct 10 15:33, you wrote to me:

    FWIW: i don't understand everyone else whining about folk using
    the services that they have paid into for so long and never will
    use...

    When the system gets abused by those who didnt pay into it?

    why is that abuse? there is nothing that i'm aware of that says
    anyone who participates in is must have paid something into it...

    why is it abuse when they can use the monies that you have paid in
    that you'll never use?

    Then leave it in my paycheck so I can use it.

    Welfare should be a hand up, not a hand out.

    Some - hopefully most - treat it as a hand up; others, of course, do not.

    --- FleetStreet 1.19+
    * Origin: Bob's Boneyard, Emerson, Iowa (1:300/3)
  • From Bob Ackley@1:300/3 to mark lewis on Wed Oct 20 07:03:24 2010
    Replying to a message of mark lewis to Bob Ackley:

    IMO one way to eleiminate the welfare 'problem' is to put a firm
    time limit on how long one may draw it - say one year. [...]

    that may or may not work... there is a variation of that being done in several places... i'm not aware of the numbers before and/or after so cannot say how they look...

    I discovered some thirty years ago that in the Midwest - or at least in this area - there were 'poor farms,' owned and operated by the various counties. People who were 'homeless' could live on those farms - and work to operate them. Of course in those days farming was much more labor intensive than it
    is today.

    There is an operation over in Red Oak called 'Nishna Productions.' Nishna after
    the beginning of the name of the river (Nishnabotna) that flows next to the city.
    This operation hires or finds jobs for physically and mentally handicapped individuals,
    and provides (dormitory style) housing and food for them. Among other things they
    run the can and bottle recycling center in Red Oak, and the folks working there
    are
    right nice people.

    --- FleetStreet 1.19+
    * Origin: Bob's Boneyard, Emerson, Iowa (1:300/3)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Jeff Binkley on Wed Oct 20 20:27:45 2010

    nice story but it still does not answer the questions i posed... ml>everyone
    who is working has to pay into the system... if they do not
    use the monies they paid in by participating in the system, then why ml>cannot others use those monies?? if you allow no one can to them,
    then you are wasting your monies and showing a very negative
    charitable side...

    The government is not in the charity business.

    i never said it was but it does (and has for many years) given money to those who do/have not paid into the system...

    If the extra money stays in the system then the government decides
    who gets the excess. If the government returns the money to the
    people,

    since when?

    then the people decide. The choice for me is easy. I trust the
    people over the government to make wise decisions with their
    money.

    once it is given to the government, it is the government's money to do with as it sees fit... once it is out of your hands, it is "out of your hands"... think
    about it ;)

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Ross Cassell on Wed Oct 20 20:31:21 2010

    Someone living off of the taxpayers, and SSI is from the general
    fund, ie welfare, he should not be deeming someone who is a
    taxpayer a failure.

    why not? i say call a spade a spade no matter who you are...

    No, I am referring to:

    Person A: Someone earning a living within the confines of the law,
    paying taxes, the whole nine yards.

    ok...

    Person B: Someone collecting a check from the govt in the form of
    welfare, pays no taxes..

    ok...

    Sorry Mark, person B has no standing or right to critique person A.

    i don't see why not...

    Maybe you were raised different from I?

    i don't think that any sane person could say, without a doubt, that they were raised the same as anyone else other than their immediate siblings ;)

    Society may have deemed welfare a necessary evil, but welfare is
    not a badge of honor and anyone drawing on it, should be humble.

    one can be humble and still critique others... there's nothing wrong with that... heck, just look around here and most any other political area... there are a huge number of folk who put themselves on some sort of pedestal above others for some reason or another... truth be known, everyone of them/us puts our pants on the same way...

    A bank robber has no business calling a shoplifter a thief.

    i don't know why not? they are both thieves... so what...

    Someone on public assistance has no business calling another who
    has never been on assistance, a failure.

    i don't know why not... they can both be failures... so what...

    Its that simple.

    obviously it isn't because if it were, we'd not be having this conversation ;)

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Jeff Binkley on Wed Oct 20 20:35:52 2010

    I wonder whose money he thinks funds the government and these
    social programs ?

    what makes you think that ross knows the answer to that question?? if
    you want to know what i think or know then ask me instead of talking
    out the side of your face to another like that...

    Feel free to answer the question. You've waded this far into the
    water.

    i know who's money it is... once you give it to the government, it is the government's money... who's money do you think it is at that point???

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Jeff Binkley on Wed Oct 20 20:36:49 2010

    IMO one way to eleiminate the welfare 'problem' is to put a firm
    time limit on how long one may draw it - say one year. [...]

    that may or may not work... there is a variation of that being done
    in several places... i'm not aware of the numbers before and/or after
    so cannot say how they look...

    It worked in the mid 90s and has worked before. If people have the
    choice of starving or working, I trust they will make the right
    choice. If we took money out of the equation, what would they do
    ?

    barter... i've been bartering my skills and knowledge for years... in some cases, i get this thing that many people are obsessed about called "money"... in other cases, i get room and board... in still other cases, i get food or cigarettes... sometimes i even gain friends...

    what would you do if money were out of the equation?

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From Bob Ackley@1:300/3 to TIM RICHARDSON on Wed Oct 20 18:39:22 2010
    Replying to a message of TIM RICHARDSON to MARK LEWIS:

    On 10-19-10, MARK LEWIS said to TIM RICHARDSON:

    Do the math........at some point....nobody's gonna be able to eat
    lunch, because there won't be enough coming in to pay for it.

    nice story but it still does not answer the questions i posed...
    everyone who is working has to pay into the system... if they do not
    use the monies they paid in by participating in the system, then why
    cannot others use those monies??

    I and many other people pay auto insurance. I've been with the same company for over twenty years, and had one accident that was the
    other guy's fault. His insurance company paid to have our vehicle
    fixed.

    A note on the news the other day said that 20% of the drivers on the roads
    in this country don't have insurance. Some timy number of them are rich
    enough to self-insure, but most of them are a problem for the rest of us.

    So......you could say that I've paid those monies into the system by participating, but never `used' it.

    I don't think I've ever had a chargeable accident (knock on wood). I have
    had to have my car dragged home or to a service station several times,
    though. One of those pays my AAA premium for the year.

    Why should someone else who has *not* paid into the system get to use
    what *I* paid into it? Why should *I* have to pay for someone's
    accident who has no insurance, and has *never* had any?

    That is a problem. Also those who don't carry renter's or flood insurance. When something bad happens - and Murphy's Law says that it will, eventually, they still expect the government (IOW the rest of us) to bail them out anyway. I suppose some would consider me hard-hearted, but if someone is harmed by
    some action on inaction on his/her own part I don't have a lot of sympathy for them; failure to acquire insurance is one such inaction, smoking is another, as is unprotected sex (of either type, one risks AIDS the other risks various STDs
    -
    and I count children as an STD).

    And its the same with the Social Security monies I've paid in all
    these years. I paid in for many years, enough to be recieving a
    fairly good monthly return for it.

    Actually you'll get a max of about $1300/month. I get about $1100/month.
    In 9 years of working at Central States Insurance, I built up enough in my
    401K to pay me $1100/month for seventeen months - after I took out a loan
    of $9K from it (which turned into a distribution when I left CSO, but I was over age 59-1/2 so no penalty) to cover the closing costs and incidentals related to my purchase of this place. The IRA lasted exactly long enough for Social Security to kick in. I suspect if one manages to stash money in a
    401K or equivalent IRA investment for a much longer period one can do better than I did. My boss mentioned that he had over $300K in his 401K just before he was laid off, but he'd had a LOT longer to work on it - if Vanguard is
    doing as well as it was he's pulling down at least $25K/year in interest on
    it, so from 2004 to date with no more contributions from him it's grown by about $150K - and he's got about 15 more years to go to age 65, so he should have somewhere around an even million in it by then - and then can draw $5,000/month out of it without touching the principal (assuming 6% growth,
    and Vanguard generally does better than that) <g>.

    But my return would be much higher if the monies weren't also going to support people who do not work. Who whine about headaches, or sore
    backs. Not to mention all the other boondoggles those monies have
    been stretched out to pay for.

    if you allow no one can to them, then you are wasting your
    monies and showing a very negative charitable side...

    The money is only being `wasted' by the politicians who have control
    over it. Any time you have politicians controlling large sums of
    money that belong to the people they are supposed to be looking out
    for, as well as governing.... you get a whole lot of `governing', and
    very little `looking out for'.

    It isn't the `governed' who waste the monies.....its the politicians.

    Amen. One definition of insanity to to keep doing the same thing over and
    over and expect a different result. The people of this country have been electing Democrooks and Republicrooks to office for over a century and
    BOTH of those groups are responsible for the mess.

    As for a `negative charitable side'.......the last time I looked, `charitable' was a matter of personal choice. What the government
    does with much of the monies we pay into the system isn't on a

    --- FleetStreet 1.19+
    * Origin: Bob's Boneyard, Emerson, Iowa (1:300/3)
  • From Bob Ackley@1:300/3 to TIM RICHARDSON on Wed Oct 20 18:39:22 2010
    `charitable' level.....it is `mandate'....enforced at the point of a
    gun.

    That isn't charity.....thats theft!

    Amen.

    It's also vote buying, and it's done to keep the crooks in office.

    --- FleetStreet 1.19+
    * Origin: Bob's Boneyard, Emerson, Iowa (1:300/3)
  • From TIM RICHARDSON@1:123/140 to MARK LEWIS on Thu Oct 21 05:37:00 2010
    On 10-20-10, MARK LEWIS said to JEFF BINKLEY:


    If the extra money stays in the system then the government decides
    who gets the excess. If the government returns the money to the
    people,


    since when?


    then the people decide. The choice for me is easy. I trust the
    people over the government to make wise decisions with their
    money.


    once it is given to the government, it is the government's money to do ML>with as it sees fit... once it is out of your hands, it is "out of your ML>hands"... think about it ;)



    Thats like saying once the money is in the bank robber's hands, it is their money to do with as they see fit!


    It isn't *the government's money*! Its *OUR* money! Without *US*.....the government wouldn't have any money!


    The money they throw away in `big digs'.....or `bridges to nowhere' is *OUR* money. The money they throw away to foreign countries so they'll `like' us is *OUR* money.


    The money they are talking about when they use the phrase *he can bring home the bacon* to denote some political figure who regularly secures money for
    some boondoggle for his or her state.....thats *OUR* money.


    The money they are paying out every month to lay-abouts who don't work, but spend their time playing on expensive computer systems (paid for with *OUR* money), living in subsidized housing...and recieving free medical care...
    thats *OUR* money.





    ---
    *Durango b301 #PE*
    * Origin: Doc's Place BBS Fido Since 1991 docsplace.tzo.com (1:123/140)
  • From Bob Ackley@1:300/3 to mark lewis on Thu Oct 21 07:04:00 2010
    Replying to a message of mark lewis to Jeff Binkley:

    once it is given to the government, it is the government's money to do with as it sees fit... once it is out of your hands, it is "out of
    your hands"... think about it ;)

    Money is given to the government only in the sense that it is given to a mugger
    -
    pay up or else.

    God only insists on 10% to run the whole d*mn planet, the government should
    be satisfied with half of that to run one country, but it takes about thirty - or
    more - percent.

    --- FleetStreet 1.19+
    * Origin: Bob's Boneyard, Emerson, Iowa (1:300/3)
  • From Ross Cassell@1:123/456 to Ross Sauer on Sat Oct 16 10:47:35 2010
    Hello Ross!

    What is it like to be on welfare and what does it do for your self-esteem?

    ==
    Ross
    Fidonet Feeds Or Fidonet In Your Newsreader: http://www.easternstar.info E-mail: ross(at)cassell(dot)us | Other Places: http://links.cassell.us

    I can see November from my House!

    And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you -
    ask what you can do for your country.. JFK (Right Wing Propoganda)

    ... The opinions expressed are not approved by the DNC, ACLU or the NAACP!
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20060121
    * Origin: The Eastern Star - Spartanburg, SC USA (1:123/456)
  • From Jeff Binkley@1:226/600 to Ross Cassell on Sat Oct 16 16:17:00 2010



    What is it like to be on welfare and what does it do for your RC>self-esteem?

    One would need to have self-esteem in order to answer your question.


    Jeff

    CMPQwk 1.42-21 9999
    Nancy Pelosi says birth control will help the economy .....

    --- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10
    * Origin: (1:226/600)
  • From Bob Ackley@1:300/3 to Ross Cassell on Sat Oct 16 16:27:08 2010
    Replying to a message of Ross Cassell to Ross Sauer:

    What is it like to be on welfare and what does it do for your
    self-esteem?

    Apparently it beats working for a living...

    --- FleetStreet 1.19+
    * Origin: Bob's Boneyard, Emerson, Iowa (1:300/3)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Bob Ackley on Sun Oct 17 01:09:15 2010

    What is it like to be on welfare and what does it do for your
    self-esteem?

    Apparently it beats working for a living...

    not everyone without a job is on welfare but they can still find ways to provide for their needs... this does not mean that they do not "work" for their
    "living"... contrary to what the gov't believes...

    in the same breath, do not believe those stats about X% are unemployed because they are always short... i've been unemployed numerous times for several years in some cases and have never gone down and been added to the statistics so i know for a fact that they are always at least one entity short... welfare helps
    those who are willing to go that route but there are many others who do not and
    will not "go there" for their own reasons...

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)