then the people decide. The choice for me is easy. I trust the
people over the government to make wise decisions with their
money.

once it is given to the government, it is the government's money to
do with as it sees fit... once it is out of your hands, it is "out of ML>your hands"... think about it ;)

It is always our money, never the government's.

if you pay me a toll to use my road, that is my money... not your's... you pay the government a "toll" (taxes) to live within its boundaries and utilize its services... that money is the government's...

)\/(ark


* Origin: (1:3634/12)

barter... i've been bartering my skills and knowledge for years... in ML>some cases, i get this thing that many people are obsessed about
called "money"... in other cases, i get room and board... in still
other cases, i get food or cigarettes... sometimes i even gain
friends...

what would you do if money were out of the equation?

Bartering and similar. My point was less about what economic
system we would move to but more of the fact that if we peel away
money, the true impacts of the activity become apparent. So if
you didn't have to give an abled person welfare money for them to
subsist but instead you had to give them an equivalent amount of
your food, shelter and time, would you be so willing or would you
hold them more accountable ?

good question... i would probably help them a bit to start with but they would be forced to contribute at some point... even if it is washing the dishes and doing the laundry starting on the second or third day or so and continuing on until such time as they start contributing in other ways...

)\/(ark


* Origin: (1:3634/12)

then the people decide. The choice for me is easy. I trust
the people over the government to make wise decisions with
their money.

once it is given to the government, it is the government's money
to do with as it sees fit... once it is out of your hands, it is ml>ML>"out of your hands"... think about it ;)

It is always our money, never the government's.

if you pay me a toll to use my road, that is my money... not
your's... you pay the government a "toll" (taxes) to live within its ml>boundaries and utilize its services... that money is the
government's...

It is always my money. The government works for me.


Jeff

CMPQwk 1.42-21 9999
Democrats -- The party of death ......

--- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10
* Origin: (1:226/600)

Hello mark!

22 Oct 10 18:18, you wrote to Jeff Binkley:

It is always our money, never the government's.

if you pay me a toll to use my road, that is my money... not your's...
you pay the government a "toll" (taxes) to live within its boundaries
and utilize its services... that money is the government's...

A Government for the people, by the people, has no meaning to you?

==
Ross
Fidonet Feeds Or Fidonet In Your Newsreader: http://www.easternstar.info E-mail: ross(at)cassell(dot)us | Other Places: http://links.cassell.us

I can see November from my House!

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you -
ask what you can do for your country.. JFK (Right Wing Propoganda)

... WORK HARDER! Millions on welfare depend on it.
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20060121
* Origin: The Eastern Star - Spartanburg, SC USA (1:123/456)

It is always our money, never the government's.

if you pay me a toll to use my road, that is my money... not your's...
you pay the government a "toll" (taxes) to live within its boundaries
and utilize its services... that money is the government's...

A Government for the people, by the people, has no meaning to you?

of course it does but even though many think they work for us, it turns out in more times than not that they do not... this is the plain reality that i see and have been seeing for many many years... since at least as far back as nixon...

)\/(ark


* Origin: (1:3634/12)

why is it abuse when they can use the monies that you have paid
in that you'll never use?

I wonder whose money he thinks funds the government and these
social programs ?

The tooth fairy?

I am shocked to think he would feel I wouldnt need it, or being okay
with having to work so others dont have to..

I am not. Many folks feel the same way. It is what happens when you
use money to abstract what is really happening to people and their
lives.


Jeff

CMPQwk 1.42-21 9999
Democrats -- The party of economic obstruction ....

--- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10
* Origin: (1:226/600)

I am shocked to think he would feel I wouldnt need it, or being okay
with having to work so others dont have to..

I am not.

you should be because both of you are wrong... nothing in my questions implies either of the above...

Many folks feel the same way. It is what happens when you use
money to abstract what is really happening to people and their
lives.

sounds like you are speaking from experience...

)\/(ark


* Origin: (1:3634/12)

I am shocked to think he would feel I wouldnt need it, or being ml>RC>okay with having to work so others dont have to..

I am not.

you should be because both of you are wrong... nothing in my
questions implies either of the above...

We both can't be wrong. We took opposite sides of an opinion.

Many folks feel the same way. It is what happens when you use
money to abstract what is really happening to people and their
lives.

sounds like you are speaking from experience...

Only the experience of watching and listening to others who espouse the
same opinions as you.


Jeff

CMPQwk 1.42-21 9999
Socialism can work until you run out of everyone elses money .....

--- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10
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I am shocked to think he would feel I wouldnt need it, or being ml>RC>okay with having to work so others dont have to..

I am not.

you should be because both of you are wrong... nothing in my
questions implies either of the above...

We both can't be wrong. We took opposite sides of an opinion.

opposites sides of an opinion on something else... he said he was shocked... you said you weren't shocked... what you and he were or were not shocked about is where you're both wrong...

Many folks feel the same way. It is what happens when you use
money to abstract what is really happening to people and their
lives.

sounds like you are speaking from experience...

Only the experience of watching and listening to others who espouse
the same opinions as you.

then you are misreading my writing... in fact, i have not "espoused" an opinion
in this discussion... i asked a very simple and plain question that no one has yet to answer... there have been replies but no definitive answer to the specific question of how it is abuse...

)\/(ark


* Origin: (1:3634/12)

nice story but it still does not answer the questions i posed... ML>ml>everyone who is working has to pay into the system... if they do ML>ml>not use the monies they paid in by participating in the system, ML>ml>then why cannot others use those monies?? if you allow no one can ML>ml>to them, then you are wasting your monies and showing a very ML>ml>negative charitable side...

The government is not in the charity business.

i never said it was but it does (and has for many years) given money
to those who do/have not paid into the system...

If the extra money stays in the system then the government
decides who gets the excess. If the government returns the
money to the people,

since when?

I think that is the very debate we are having. You are suggesting that
we might as well use it since the government will keep it and I am
suggesting the government give it back.

then the people decide. The choice for me is easy. I trust the
people over the government to make wise decisions with their
money.

once it is given to the government, it is the government's money to
do with as it sees fit... once it is out of your hands, it is "out of ML>your hands"... think about it ;)

It is always our money, never the government's.


Jeff

CMPQwk 1.42-21 9999
Nancy Pelosi says birth control will help the economy .....

--- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10
* Origin: (1:226/600)

I wonder whose money he thinks funds the government and these
social programs ?

what makes you think that ross knows the answer to that question?? ML>ml>if you want to know what i think or know then ask me instead of ML>ml>talking out the side of your face to another like that...

Feel free to answer the question. You've waded this far into
the water.

i know who's money it is... once you give it to the government, it is
the government's money... who's money do you think it is at that
point???

I believe many folks agree with your opinion. I do not. It is never
the government's money, it is always ours. Too many people are giving
the government a pass and not holding them accountable with our money.


Jeff

CMPQwk 1.42-21 9999
Nancy Pelosi says birth control will help the economy .....

--- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10
* Origin: (1:226/600)

IMO one way to eleiminate the welfare 'problem' is to put a
firm time limit on how long one may draw it - say one year.
[...]

that may or may not work... there is a variation of that being
done in several places... i'm not aware of the numbers before ML>ml>and/or after so cannot say how they look...

It worked in the mid 90s and has worked before. If people have
the choice of starving or working, I trust they will make the
right choice. If we took money out of the equation, what would
they do ?

barter... i've been bartering my skills and knowledge for years... in ML>some cases, i get this thing that many people are obsessed about
called "money"... in other cases, i get room and board... in still
other cases, i get food or cigarettes... sometimes i even gain
friends...

what would you do if money were out of the equation?

Bartering and similar. My point was less about what economic system we
would move to but more of the fact that if we peel away money, the true impacts of the activity become apparent. So if you didn't have to give
an abled person welfare money for them to subsist but instead you had to
give them an equivalent amount of your food, shelter and time, would you
be so willing or would you hold them more accountable ?

Jeff

CMPQwk 1.42-21 9999
Stop the Democrat party oil embargo ....

--- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10
* Origin: (1:226/600)

On 10-20-10, MARK LEWIS said to JEFF BINKLEY:

Only the experience of watching and listening to others who espouse
the same opinions as you.

then you are misreading my writing... in fact, i have not "espoused" an ML>opinion in this discussion... i asked a very simple and plain question ML>that no one has yet to answer... there have been replies but no definitive ML>answer to the specific question of how it is abuse...

It is abuse in the same way that a car pool to and from work has one member
who does not own a motor vehicle, and contributes no money to the gasoline for the commute.


It is abuse in the same way the people working in an office contribute to a coffee pool to support the coffee and donuts available for all, except one of them never contributes, never `makes' the coffee, never makes the donut run, only drinks coffee all day, and eats donuts.



A person who works for less time than what qualifies as a `quarter' for the purposes of Social Security, but then scams the system to recieve a life-long check in the mail every month without ever working `for' that check.....that
is abuse.


As a grown up adult (I assume), I'm surprised someone has to explain that to you.





---
*Durango b301 #PE*
* Origin: Doc's Place BBS Fido Since 1991 docsplace.tzo.com (1:123/140)