*** Quoting Mark Hofmann from a message to Sean Dennis ***

There are a few of us rebels up here that aren't on the bandwagon.

Oh, I know, but people like yourself are unfortunately very
few and far between. There is an echo I frequent in
Fidonet that is full of liberals from the Northeast and
many of them are old enough to be a parent of mine. I have

Which echo is that? Full of liberals? Don't know of any such.

been castigated a few times when I dare speak up about
their incessant liberal whining (oddly enough, the echo
rules stipulate that there isn't supposed to be
any political discussion, but these people manage to put
their political twist on everything that gets posted).

Oh, a non-political echo?

I just find it funny that there are no younger people in
there who are liberal-I'm just wondering if it's a case of
old views dying with their holders.

The young have given up hope. They have bought too many of the
conservative lies.

...

That is normal though that people in cities are more
liberal since many of the city's population are
professional welfare receipients and they dare not bite the
hand that keeps them captive in poverty...er, I mean feeds

Now, that has got to big the biggest pile of fraud I've seen in
Fido in a long time.

Ever hear of a secret ballot?

BTW, there are more welfare recipients in rural areas than big
cities.

them. A very good example is southern Illinois, which I
found during my time living there that a majority of the
population is "red" and really resents having to deal with
Chicago since that's the only place that Springfield
(state's capitol) seems to listen to.

The Chicago suburbs are larger than the city by far.

...

how ignorant the state legislature becomes when the great
Chicago political machine buys off the legislature and
keeps it in Chicago's back pocket.

The Chicago political machine is nothing compared to downstate,
the suburbs, and the outer cities and small towns. Just too damn
many of those small town people and rural people who are smart
enough to vote democratic.

...

we're a "red" state through and through right now with
Republicans holding a majority

IOW, as things go to hell you deserve it, cause you inflicted it
on the rest of us.

in the state government and the governor's office currently.

It makes the very liberal "higher education" population
that rots in my town uncomfortable to no end. It's kinda

So, you are saying educated people are "liberal". You might take
that as a hint.

funny to hear them whine that they can't get handouts from
the state anymore...

You mean they can't afford to go to college? Does that mean you
believe college should only be for the wealthy? Education has
been a government responsibility in this country since before
there was this country. Republicans are abandoning that
responsibility. And you wonder why things are going downhill.



BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... "Where the future begins...tomorrow."
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
* Origin: Since 1991 And Were Still Here! DOCSPLACE.TZO.COM (1:123/140)

ok... so which group is for allowing gun ownership and which group is
for removing personal weapons?

Well, since the Constitution gives us the right to bear arms, no
one "allows" gun ownership. The liberals, who can't understand why
anyone would want to defend themselves or their property (I guess
too many years of living off the government tit has diluted their
sense of "self-worth"), have been trying for years and years to
turn the US into Canada or UK...where one can be completely
defenseless and only the government can have guns...to use on
whomever they please.

see? something seems backwards here... to me, liberal means allowing
more of something whereas a conservative wants to restrict something...

Actually... no...

Well, it depends on who is using the words and when. And about
what.

Conservative used to mean preserving the good parts of the
system. Now it means catering to business and big money.

Liberal used to mean change the system, more or less quickly and
drastically. Now it has been so distorted by right wing media no
one knows what it means at all.

Today conservatives want tax cuts for the rich, and shifting the
burden to the working class. That and interfering in your
personal life.

Liberals want to tax the rich, shift the burden to those who
have profited the most, and keep government out of your personal
life.

allowing personal gun ownership (ie: not trying to take it away) seems
to be a liberal act... like liberally applying mayonaise to a sandwich...

True.

who switched the terms' definitions around? why?

Mostly right wingers, to disguise the fact that they have
twisted things around completely.

A lot of it goes all the way back to the days of the
Revolution. Back then, you had the Whigs and Tories. The
Tories were the royalists who favored King George, and the
Whigs were the colonials and others who favored
independence and a republican form of government. After
the war, the Tories became known as Democrats, favoring a
more 'liberal' form of government where everyone was equal,
and the government acted on behalf of all the people, like
their 'mommy' so to speak.

Well, that has to be one of the most absurd possible
explanations. First of all, the Tories had nothing much to do
with the early US government. The Republicans were the ones who
adhered to the ideas of Thomas Jefferson who favored a farmer
rural small town nation.

The ones favoring a strong central government and industry were
the Federalists. There was no democratic party then.

The Whigs favored a republic and favored more individual
rights for citizens -- less intrusive government at the
top, and more state's rights at the bottom. The Whigs

The Whigs didn't exist until 45 years after the constitution was
signed. When they did come into existance they were the
replacement for the Federalists, the strong federal government
industrial nation party.

gradually faded out by the mid-1800s. There was a whole

During that period there were two republican parties. The
National Republican party who followed up on the
Whigs/Federalists, and the Democratic-Republican party who were
the original Republican party.

raft of small parties that cropped up and quickly died out
at the same time. Then in the 1850s, the Grand Old Party
(aka the Republicans) started up. After ten years of

After the Democratic-Republican party changed their name to the
Democratic party.

running locals at the state level, they entered national
politics and nominated Lincoln as their candidate for
president. The rest is history.

The old line pre-WWII Democrats were a lot more like modern
Republicans, and are often referred to as small L liberals.

Or conservatives.

Post war Democrats (or Roosevelt Democrats) are often
called big L liberals because of the more radical
Roosevelt ideology that fathered the welfare state, and
things like Social Security and Medicare (modern day
entitlement programs).

So, nobody has really switched the definitions. Think of
'liberal' in terms of being 'progressive' or 'community
oriented' where control is more centrally located, and
power is excercised supposedly for the benefit of all.
'Conservative' refers to decentralized control where power
is restricted and exercised to a set of rules laid down in
the Constitution, with much more individual autonomy.

That last part is not quite true. Conservative doesn't actually
mean adhering to the constitution. If you don't believe it, try
to explain how government can subsidize religious proselytizing
combined with welfare service. Conservative typically means
states rights, which has very little to do with restricting
power, just who wields is. Corruption is really more common in
local government than national. As is abuse.

That's my observation.


BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... When you get there, there isn't any there anymore.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
* Origin: Since 1991 And Were Still Here! DOCSPLACE.TZO.COM (1:123/140)

...

It probably is. Some time back somebody posted an article
that noted that today
there are more 'takers' (consumers of tax money) than
'makers' (people who actually
produce things).

Of course takers includ every person in retail, every person in
the service sector, all teachers including private schools and
colleges, lawyers, doctors, other medical workers, janitors,
restaurant wait staff... etc. Everyone who doesn't actually
produce some*THING*.

Probably 15 years ago a representative of the Futurist
Society noted that one person
in three in this country received a monthly government
check. That includes all government
employees and retirees, Social Security recipieents and
welfare recipients, plus contractors
and their employees who work for the government. I suspect
that today it's more than
one in three.

I doubt it. Aprox 15% of the people in this country are
children. About 20 to 40% of the pre-retirement age adults are
not getting any check from anyone. Yes, there are still
homemakers in this country. Of the retirees, unless they both
had incomes, only one of a couple gets a check. Same for
employees of any sort. One member of a couple getting a govt
check does not make both getting a govt check.





BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
* Origin: Since 1991 And Were Still Here! DOCSPLACE.TZO.COM (1:123/140)

...

I have thought the exact same thing before. Conservative when it
comes to spending, not people's rights. Conservatives follow the
constituation - liberals ignore it or want to change it as they
see fit. Afterall, they know what is best for us average people
in the US population.. :)

Conservatives *claim* to follow the Constitution, in practice they do as
much damage
to it as liberals. The horribly misnamed USA PATRIOT Act to name just one.

On balance, if you go back to the beginning of the
entitlement era (1932), I think you'll find that the most
egregious damage has been done by Democrats/liberals. They

Nope. Bush alone did more damage than democrats did since then.
Real damage, not pretend damage.

were the first to start dipping into the Social Security
trust fund,

The trust fund was invested in Treasury securities from it's
inception.

they passed Johnson's Guns and Butter welfare crap

Johnson's plan was a work based plan. Welfare existed before
Johnson, and his attempt to turn it into work was killed by
conservatives.

Oh, and Johnson's policies still kept the debt/GDP ratio going
down.

they passed Medicare, they passed Food Stamps, etc.

Medicare has been one of America's great success stories.

JFK and LBJ got food stamps started up, but the big expansion
was under Nixon/Ford.

Now, to be sure, Republicans were complicate in some of
those, but basically it was Democrats who own the
entitlement problem.

Entitlements are not the problem, jobs are. And republicans own
the unemployment problem.

After all, most the stuff prior to
Obama happened between 1945 and 1994 when the Democrats
were in control of the House and at least partially in
control of the Senate for the vast majority of that period.

And republicans were in control of the presidency and partially
or completely in control of congress most of the time from 1980
till 2009. Yet they did not solve one single problem in this
line.



BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... Two infinite things, the universe & stupidity. Not sure about the universe. --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
* Origin: Since 1991 And Were Still Here! DOCSPLACE.TZO.COM (1:123/140)

HEllo Bob,

On Mon 2039-May-23 04:23, BOB KLAHN (1:123/140) wrote to JOHN HULL:

I usually don't reply to threads brought here from other
echoes, as you're all talking around each other instead of
*to each other, as those you are replying to here don't
carry this echo. But had to this one.

they passed Johnson's Guns and Butter welfare crap

Johnson's plan was a work based plan. Welfare existed before
Johnson, and his attempt to turn it into work was killed by
conservatives.

Granted. WElfare in various forms existed long before, to
wit the Elizabethan "poor laws" etc.

THis is why when these discussions keep coming up in the
various Fidonet political fora I point folks to TenBroek's
"Hope deferred" which should be at least available to you
via interlibrary loan. WIth work there is hope.


Regards,
Richard
... 10% of everything isn't crap, watch closely or you'll miss it!
---
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Oh, I know, but people like yourself are unfortunately very
few and far between. There is an echo I frequent in
Fidonet that is full of liberals from the Northeast and
many of them are old enough to be a parent of mine. I have

Which echo is that? Full of liberals? Don't know of any such.

Nigga-land?

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110414
* Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)

Conservative used to mean preserving the good parts of the
system. Now it means catering to business and big money.

Liberal used to mean change the system, more or less quickly and drastically. Now it has been so distorted by right wing media no
one knows what it means at all.

Today conservatives want tax cuts for the rich, and shifting the
burden to the working class. That and interfering in your
personal life.

Liberals want to tax the rich, shift the burden to those who
have profited the most, and keep government out of your personal
life.

Thank you!

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110414
* Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)

Oh, I know, but people like yourself are unfortunately very
few and far between. There is an echo I frequent in
Fidonet that is full of liberals from the Northeast and
many of them are old enough to be a parent of mine. I have

Which echo is that? Full of liberals? Don't know of any such.

Nigga-land?

Do you understand just how offensive that is?



BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... History is a base to build on not a quagmire in which to become immersed. --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
* Origin: Since 1991 And Were Still Here! DOCSPLACE.TZO.COM (1:123/140)