HI Bob,

On Sat 2039-Jan-01 23:28, BOB KLAHN (1:123/140) wrote to RICHARD WEBB:

<big snip>

Readers of other FIdonet echoes of this type will recall a
heated debate over disaster aid and preparedness in another
echo I was involved in. A person essentially on the other
side of many of the issues asked why no concern over the
flooding and natural disasters in Pakistan.

Then I stated that with the TAliban and Al Qaeda getting
tacit support from the Pakistani government I saw no reason
that we should put one dime's worth of aid in their hands,
and would still say the same.

Yet, the plan should be to undermine the Taliban and the
Pakistani govt. An awful lot of Pakistanis don't like the
Taliban, or Al Qaeda, or their govt. We need to make use of those
facts.

INdeed, but as long as we speak with forked tongue on the
issue I'm not for putting one dime's worth of food aid or
any other type of aid in their hands. tHose aid workers
should be backed up with well armed well trained troops, and they should let them know in ISlamabad that an attack on aid workers has immediate consequences
for senior government
officials.

I applaud the U.N. relief agencies' decision.
I truly believe that the U.N. relief workers should be
evacuated post haste, and all the food stocks and other
materials which cannot be taken out with them should be
destroyed.

Uhh... innocent people will die. Remember, Al Qaeda kills more
Muslims than non-Muslims. And every time they attack they make more enemies. I do believe a lot of Pakistanis died in that attack,
didn't they?

INdeed, but the messages are too mixed. that government is
no friend of ours, and no real friend of the international
community. sO, innocent people will die. I'm truly sorry
about that, but we can't help them unless we're willing to
kick some posterior now and worry about taking names later,
and that includes the Pakistani government.

Remember, when the USSR pulled out of Afghanistan they didn't
settle back and rest, they expanded.

And they will continue to do just that until we get the
gumption to do it right. But then I don't expect we will.
I'm still waiting to see that freedom for KUwait we fought
for ya know. LEt's either do it right, or bring the young
men and women home.

IF nothing else there's always that big water control
project in INdia. WE can defend it with troops and tell the folks in ISlamabad
that we'll shut off the tap unless they
stfu and do as they're told. sO more innocent people will
die. CAn't make an omelet and all those other nice cliches. IT's time to get serious about the radical fundamentalism
problem, and that's a good place to start, because that's
the biggest danger right now. so long as the government in
ISlambad permits the Qaedas to operate freely they should be considered a rogue
state, and treated accordingly.

... If Jesus was Jewish, why did they give him a Mexican name? ---

<rotfl>


Regards,
Richard
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hello all!

I note in this morning's COmmercial Appeal here in MEmphis
an article stating that all the U.N. food aid distribution
sites have been closed down thanks to Al Qaeda suicide
bomber attacks, etc.

Readers of other FIdonet echoes of this type will recall a
heated debate over disaster aid and preparedness in another
echo I was involved in. A person essentially on the other
side of many of the issues asked why no concern over the
flooding and natural disasters in Pakistan.
Then I stated that with the TAliban and Al Qaeda getting
tacit support from the Pakistani government I saw no reason
that we should put one dime's worth of aid in their hands,
and would still say the same.

I applaud the U.N. relief agencies' decision.
I truly believe that the U.N. relief workers should be
evacuated post haste, and all the food stocks and other
materials which cannot be taken out with them should be
destroyed.


Regards,
Richard
... 10% of everything isn't crap, watch closely or you'll miss it!
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: (1:116/901)

...

Then I stated that with the TAliban and Al Qaeda getting
tacit support from the Pakistani government I saw no reason
that we should put one dime's worth of aid in their hands,
and would still say the same.

Yet, the plan should be to undermine the Taliban and the
Pakistani govt. An awful lot of Pakistanis don't like the
Taliban, or Al Qaeda, or their govt. We need to make use of those
facts.

INdeed, but as long as we speak with forked tongue on the
issue I'm not for putting one dime's worth of food aid or
any other type of aid in their hands. tHose aid workers
should be backed up with well armed well trained troops,
and they should let them know in ISlamabad that an attack
on aid workers has immediate consequences for senior
government officials.

OH, now that I can see the point of. Though... if the reason for
the invasion of Iraq was to bring freedom to the Iraqis, the
current rational of the right, then why not bring freedom to the
people of Pakistan?

I applaud the U.N. relief agencies' decision.
I truly believe that the U.N. relief workers should be
evacuated post haste, and all the food stocks and other
materials which cannot be taken out with them should be
destroyed.

Uhh... innocent people will die. Remember, Al Qaeda kills more
Muslims than non-Muslims. And every time they attack they make more
enemies. I do believe a lot of Pakistanis died in that attack,
didn't they?

INdeed, but the messages are too mixed. that government is
no friend of ours, and no real friend of the international
community. sO, innocent people will die. I'm truly sorry
about that, but we can't help them unless we're willing to
kick some posterior now and worry about taking names later,
and that includes the Pakistani government.

Oh, you already said that.

Remember, when the USSR pulled out of Afghanistan they didn't
settle back and rest, they expanded.

And they will continue to do just that until we get the
gumption to do it right. But then I don't expect we will.
I'm still waiting to see that freedom for KUwait we fought
for ya know. LEt's either do it right, or bring the young
men and women home.

Yeah... we are patient, waitind for 20 years for that freedom
for Kuwait. OTOH, some truth might make the waiting easier.
Wikileaks, where are you when we need you?

IF nothing else there's always that big water control
project in INdia. WE can defend it with troops and tell
the folks in ISlamabad that we'll shut off the tap unless
they stfu and do as they're told. sO more innocent people
will die. CAn't make an omelet and all those other nice

Maybe just do some precision surgery of the Pakistan
intelligence service.

cliches. IT's time to get serious about the radical
fundamentalism problem, and that's a good place to start,

IF we are going to get serious about terrorism, the best place
to start is Saudi Arabia. But you already know that.

because that's the biggest danger right now. so long as
the government in ISlambad permits the Qaedas to operate
freely they should be considered a rogue state, and treated
accordingly.

More like a failed state. Or a failed state in the process of
failing.

OTOH, we need to rein in India's nuke activities also. Damn so
much we need to do.



BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... The government is big...the government does a lot of good things. B. Dole --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
* Origin: Doc's Place BBS Fido Since 1991 docsplace.tzo.com (1:123/140)

Hi Bob,

On Mon 2039-Jan-03 05:53, BOB KLAHN (1:123/140) wrote to RICHARD WEBB:

and they should let them know in ISlamabad that an attack
on aid workers has immediate consequences for senior
government officials.

OH, now that I can see the point of. Though... if the reason for
the invasion of Iraq was to bring freedom to the Iraqis, the
current rational of the right, then why not bring freedom to the
people of Pakistan?

Indeed! IT takes trained troops, it takes willpower, it
takes building of infrastructure, the things we're failing
to do in Afghanistan.

I applaud the U.N. relief agencies' decision.
I truly believe that the U.N. relief workers should be
evacuated post haste,

<snip>

I'm still waiting to see that freedom for KUwait we fought
for ya know. LEt's either do it right, or bring the young
men and women home.

Yeah... we are patient, waitind for 20 years for that freedom for
Kuwait. OTOH, some truth might make the waiting easier. Wikileaks,
where are you when we need you?

FUnny but nobody has anything to say about that.

IF nothing else there's always that big water control
project in INdia. WE can defend it with troops and tell
the folks in ISlamabad that we'll shut off the tap unless
they stfu and do as they're told. sO more innocent people
will die. CAn't make an omelet and all those other nice

Maybe just do some precision surgery of the Pakistan
intelligence service.

tHere's a thought. ISI essentially operates with autonomy.

IF we are going to get serious about terrorism, the best place to
start is Saudi Arabia. But you already know that.

That's from whence the money flows.

because that's the biggest danger right now. so long as
the government in ISlambad permits the Qaedas to operate
freely they should be considered a rogue state, and treated
accordingly.

More like a failed state. Or a failed state in the process of
failing.

this is true, but they'll continue to fail unless something
drastic is made to happen. Had to pause while writing this
msg for the xyl to read me an article from this morning's
paper. Seems the government over there is breaking up. THe more moderates are
bailing out of parliament and the cabinet twould appear.

OTOH, we need to rein in India's nuke activities also. Damn so
much we need to do.

Right, and the way to rein in INdia's nuclear ambition is to deal with the failed state which is their neighbor.


Regards,
Richard
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: (1:116/901)

...

<snip>>

Indeed! IT takes trained troops, it takes willpower, it
takes building of infrastructure, the things we're failing
to do in Afghanistan.

Don't forget, nationbuilding is not good. Nationbuilding is bad.
Nationbuilding is the work of Satan. We know that because right
wingers tell us so.

IT has its downside, I'd agree there, but something *must*
be done in that region, and the better thing to do is
provide the troops and resources necessary to do just that.

Yeah, actually commit to fixing it. Gonna happen this week I
bet... yeah... sure... I believe it as much as you do.

PEople who have a future that is other than bleak don't
have as much motivation to fight to the point of their own
destruction.

Yep. Or, as I say it, when they have more to lose than they have
to gain...

And if they have nothing to lose then they can do anything for
any reason.

Best to just let them live in anarchy and grow hard and bitter and
hate filled... what can they do, we are protected by oceans, aren't
we?

That ocean isn't a whole lot of protection these days,
especially when we listen to folks moan and groan as they
bring them over here on student visas and whatever else.

Yeah... that's the point. The ocean stopped being any protection
at all by WWII.

...

After Kuwait I was thinking, the next president should vow that no
American soldier would be sent to fight, and put his life on the
line, and maybe die, unless it's for democracy for the
country they are fighting for.

I've always hoped for that one. iF that's not what we're
fighting for I don't want the young folks going there to
die, for *any* other reason. NO other reason is worth it

Exactly.

imho. But, now we have a situation where we must do just
that, because there are a couple of failed states that
we've either two choices: Nation building or annihilation.

Yep. Though there is a good chance if we got out of the way they
could fix it themselves. The Iraqis were saying, if the US
leaves we will take care of Al Qaeda. They didn't like Al Qaeda
any more than we did.

A local columnist in the Toledo Paper is a native of Pakistan.
He points out, the military there doesn't much like being jerked
around by politicians, and they won't care if those politicians
wear turbans.

We ain't winning there, and just making more enemies.

Funny how we went in my little over half a century lifetime
from being a beacon of freedom and justice to the world to
being vilified and considered inept. WHat happened to that
beacon for liberty and justice we herad about in our civics
lessons? IT got snuffed out, and then sold as parts for
cheap oil.

Excellent analysis... but... there is hope.

Worldpublicopinion.org prints results of various polls. They say
the world's opinion of the US is moving up. We aren't at the top
yet, but we are moving up.

The Emir of Kuwait would not have been allowed to return by my
rules.

MIne either, but he did return. Even then I was saying to
folks that they shouldn't confuse dying for oil with
fighting for freedom.

Which, somehow, they got confused about again.

<snip>>

Maybe just do some precision surgery of the Pakistan
intelligence service.

There's a thought. ISI essentially operates with autonomy.

Exactly my thought.

Appears they're gonna be running the show in the whole
country anyway.

Unless they bring in the Taliban and the military decides to
stop that.

<snip>>

...

OTOH, we need to rein in India's nuke activities also. Damn so
much we need to do.

RIght, but isn't some of India's nuke activity power
generation related as well?

Yep, which is completely within the anti-proliferation rules.

Right, and the way to rein in INdia's nuclear ambition is
to deal with the failed state which is their neighbor.

I suspect India would still want to be the dominant power so they
would keep the nukes. They all need to be under world
pressure.

Probably, but if I had to make a choice I'd just as soon
INdia have the whip hand.

I'd just as soon the all be forced to keep their hands off each
other.



BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... Device $ not found: A)bort, R)efinance, D)eclare bankruptcy.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
* Origin: Doc's Place BBS Fido Since 1991 docsplace.tzo.com (1:123/140)

Hello Bob,

On Wed 2039-Jan-12 18:06, BOB KLAHN (1:123/140) wrote to RICHARD WEBB:

<snip>

Don't forget, nationbuilding is not good. Nationbuilding is bad.
Nationbuilding is the work of Satan. We know that because right
wingers tell us so.

IT has its downside, I'd agree there, but something *must*
be done in that region, and the better thing to do is
provide the troops and resources necessary to do just that.

Yeah, actually commit to fixing it. Gonna happen this week I
bet... yeah... sure... I believe it as much as you do.

Nope, I have my doubts.

PEople who have a future that is other than bleak don't
have as much motivation to fight to the point of their own
destruction.

Yep. Or, as I say it, when they have more to lose than they have
to gain...

And if they have nothing to lose then they can do anything for any reason.

I've always reminded folks of that little sad fact over the
years. Don't mess with a guy with nothing to lose. HE can
go all out.

That ocean isn't a whole lot of protection these days,
especially when we listen to folks moan and groan as they
bring them over here on student visas and whatever else.

Yeah... that's the point. The ocean stopped being any protection
at all by WWII.

OF course it did, and we let people in on student visas,
work permits, etc. that hatred can travel at the speed of
light, and infect a young man who six months later will be
attending school here. OR, bringing us the next a*** who is interested in learning to fly jumbo jets but not in how to
land them.

I've always hoped for that one. iF that's not what we're
fighting for I don't want the young folks going there to
die, for *any* other reason. NO other reason is worth it

Exactly.

imho. But, now we have a situation where we must do just
that, because there are a couple of failed states that
we've either two choices: Nation building or annihilation.

We wouldn't be in that mess if we didn't defend despots such as the emir of Kuwait, the SAudis, etc.

Yep. Though there is a good chance if we got out of the way they
could fix it themselves. The Iraqis were saying, if the US
leaves we will take care of Al Qaeda. They didn't like Al Qaeda
any more than we did.

WOuld they, or would we just get more TAlibans and Qaedas.
My grandson is very close to fighting age, and unless he
gets lucky with a scholarship he's probably going to be
looking for ways to get that education, and one of them
could be one of the service branches. NOrmally I'd say he
should do that, but I don't really feel that great about him defending such pigs as the TAliban or the house of SAud,
unless he'd get to push the obliteration button.

A local columnist in the Toledo Paper is a native of Pakistan. He
points out, the military there doesn't much like being jerked
around by politicians, and they won't care if those politicians
wear turbans.

Maybe, but if they make alliance with the Qaedas and the
TAliban then we've got one choice, and that's arm India to
the teeth, assist their nuclear program to the help and let
'em get it on.

We ain't winning there, and just making more enemies.

THat's right, and that's what we've done in that whole
region since Desert STorm. I never understood why a young
man or woman should go to fight for this emir when the rich
kids from his country partied in EUrope. MEanwhile a young
man couldn't read Plaboy magazine, a young American soldier
couldn't be seen in town or drive if she chose. THat isn't
what we stand for here. One drop of our blood spilled for
that is one drop too many. IF blood is to be spilled let's
drench that part of the world in it, and get it over with
and bring the young boys and girls home.

Funny how we went in my little over half a century lifetime
from being a beacon of freedom and justice to the world to
being vilified and considered inept. WHat happened to that
beacon for liberty and justice we heard about in our civics
lessons? IT got snuffed out, and then sold as parts for
cheap oil.

Excellent analysis... but... there is hope.

Worldpublicopinion.org prints results of various polls. They say
the world's opinion of the US is moving up. We aren't at the top
yet, but we are moving up.

WE should've never moved down in the first place. tHough we tried to avoid WW2
we waded in with both feet when we
finally did, when we were forced in, but FDR understood that day was coming. Have been reading a lot of history of the
FDR presidency recently. that old boy faced some agonizing
choices in the very near future, and accepted that draft to
run again in 40 just because he knew what those choices
meant.

The Emir of Kuwait would not have been allowed to return by my
rules.

MIne either, but he did return. Even then I was saying to
folks that they shouldn't confuse dying for oil with
fighting for freedom.

Which, somehow, they got confused about again.

THey never got unconfused Bob. THe memory of our average
American citizen is quite short, they remember what was on
the tube five minutes ago before they clicked the damn
remote. Crack a book? NOt hardly. that takes some
intellectual engagement. ONe actually has to engage a few
brain cells to do that, and we're more interested in killing 'em off, or just turning 'em off. MOst of our young folks
going over there to possibly die didn't even know where the
hell these places were two days before they shipped out, and didn't care.
I'm sure you've seen those surveys where they walked folks
up to a globe and asked them to "point to your location."

There's a thought. ISI essentially operates with autonomy.

Exactly my thought.

YEp, they're the ones that double deal, and will deal with
the Taliban if they think that's where their advantage
lies.

Appears they're gonna be running the show in the whole
country anyway.

Unless they bring in the Taliban and the military decides to stop
that.

Maybe, we'll have to wait and see. From what I understand
ISI basically manipulates the military anyway.

OTOH, we need to rein in India's nuke activities also. Damn so
much we need to do.

RIght, but isn't some of India's nuke activity power
generation related as well?

Yep, which is completely within the anti-proliferation rules.

YEs it is, but easy to go from power generation to enriched
plutonium, etc.

<snip>

I suspect India would still want to be the dominant power so they
would keep the nukes. They all need to be under world
pressure.

PRobalby, but, consider it from their pov. Would you want
to give up the ability to annihilate your neighbor if they
give you any guff? This is especially true when your
neighbor is sympathetic to the TAliban, the Qaedas and that
ilk. I'd want it known that in a moment's notice if you
tick me off you'll die. I mean every man woman and child.
Were I the Indian government I'd remind them I can always
turn off the tap first, after all, I control the headwaters
of that big river that gives them all that irrigation, and I might just decide a pretty fountain is more to my liking
than watering your fields folks.
wHen the only tool you've got is a bludgeon ...

Probably, but if I had to make a choice I'd just as soon
INdia have the whip hand.

I'd just as soon the all be forced to keep their hands off each
other.

Right, but that means a major change in attitude, from the
government, and the populace. Until that happens I'd just
as soon India have that whip hand.



Regards,
Richard
... Everybody does better when everybody does better.
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: (1:116/901)

BOB KLAHN wrote to RICHARD WEBB <=-

Don't forget, nationbuilding is not good. Nationbuilding is bad.
Nationbuilding is the work of Satan. We know that because right
wingers tell us so.

Others agree, but for differing reasons:

III. Attack by Stratagem

1. Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to
take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not
so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy
it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.

2. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme
excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

3. Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the
next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in
order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of
all is to besiege walled cities.

4. The rule is, not to besiege walled cities if it can possibly be avoided.
The preparation of mantlets, movable shelters, and various implements of
war, will take up three whole months; and the piling up of mounds over
against the walls will take three months more.

5. The general, unable to control his irritation, will launch his men to
the assault like swarming ants, with the result that one-third of his men
are slain, while the town still remains untaken. Such are the disastrous effects of a siege.

6. Therefore the skillful leader subdues the enemy's troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he
overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field.

7. With his forces intact he will dispute the mastery of the Empire, and
thus, without losing a man, his triumph will be complete. This is the
method of attacking by stratagem.


--kW


kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
realitycheckBBS | http://realitycheckbbs.org




... VMS must die!
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
--- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
* Origin: realitycheckBBS | http://www.realitycheckbbs.org (1:218/700)

...

OH, now that I can see the point of. Though... if the reason for
the invasion of Iraq was to bring freedom to the Iraqis, the
current rational of the right, then why not bring freedom to the
people of Pakistan?

Indeed! IT takes trained troops, it takes willpower, it
takes building of infrastructure, the things we're failing
to do in Afghanistan.

Don't forget, nationbuilding is not good. Nationbuilding is bad.
Nationbuilding is the work of Satan. We know that because right
wingers tell us so.

Best to just let them live in anarchy and grow hard and bitter
and hate filled... what can they do, we are protected by oceans,
aren't we?

...

I'm still waiting to see that freedom for KUwait we fought
for ya know. LEt's either do it right, or bring the young
men and women home.

Yeah... we are patient, waitind for 20 years for that freedom for
Kuwait. OTOH, some truth might make the waiting easier. Wikileaks,
where are you when we need you?

FUnny but nobody has anything to say about that.

After Kuwait I was thinking, the next president should vow that
no American soldier would be sent to fight, and put his life on
the line, and maybe die, unless it's for democracy for the
country they are fighting for.

The Emir of Kuwait would not have been allowed to return by my
rules.

IF nothing else there's always that big water control
project in INdia. WE can defend it with troops and tell
the folks in ISlamabad that we'll shut off the tap unless
they stfu and do as they're told. sO more innocent people
will die. CAn't make an omelet and all those other nice

Maybe just do some precision surgery of the Pakistan
intelligence service.

tHere's a thought. ISI essentially operates with autonomy.

Exactly my thought.

IF we are going to get serious about terrorism, the best place to
start is Saudi Arabia. But you already know that.

That's from whence the money flows.

Yep... you know. And the fanaticism. The word is not Islamic,
the word is not Jihadi, the word is Wahabi.

because that's the biggest danger right now. so long as
the government in ISlambad permits the Qaedas to operate
freely they should be considered a rogue state, and treated
accordingly.

More like a failed state. Or a failed state in the process of
failing.

this is true, but they'll continue to fail unless something
drastic is made to happen. Had to pause while writing this
msg for the xyl to read me an article from this morning's
paper. Seems the government over there is breaking up.
THe more moderates are bailing out of parliament and the
cabinet twould appear.

From what I have heard about that, the parties that are bailing
out are not planning to bring down the government. None of them
want to be responsible for bringing back the military rule.

OTOH, we need to rein in India's nuke activities also. Damn so
much we need to do.

Right, and the way to rein in INdia's nuclear ambition is
to deal with the failed state which is their neighbor.

I suspect India would still want to be the dominant power so
they would keep the nukes. They all need to be under world
pressure.

BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... Even in my darkest silence, I hear a voice of rage and ruin, in stereo.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
* Origin: Doc's Place BBS Fido Since 1991 docsplace.tzo.com (1:123/140)

Hi Kurt,

On Thu 2039-Jan-13 11:35, Kurt Weiske (1:218/700) wrote to BOB KLAHN:

Others agree, but for differing reasons:

III. Attack by Stratagem

1. Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best thing of all
is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and
destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an
army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment
or a company entire than to destroy them.

Indeed. And then we snip to ...

4. The rule is, not to besiege walled cities if it can possibly be
avoided. The preparation of mantlets, movable shelters, and various implements of war, will take up three whole months; and the piling
up of mounds over against the walls will take three months more.

5. The general, unable to control his irritation, will launch his
men to the assault like swarming ants, with the result that
one-third of his men are slain, while the town still remains
untaken. Such are the disastrous effects of a siege.

YEp, and here in the new world we have "remember the alamo!" a perfect example of this.


Regards,
Richard
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Hello all!

I note in this morning's COmmercial Appeal here in MEmphis
an article stating that all the U.N. food aid distribution
sites have been closed down thanks to Al Qaeda suicide
bomber attacks, etc.

Readers of other FIdonet echoes of this type will recall a
heated debate over disaster aid and preparedness in another
echo I was involved in. A person essentially on the other
side of many of the issues asked why no concern over the
flooding and natural disasters in Pakistan.

Then I stated that with the TAliban and Al Qaeda getting
tacit support from the Pakistani government I saw no reason
that we should put one dime's worth of aid in their hands,
and would still say the same.

Yet, the plan should be to undermine the Taliban and the
Pakistani govt. An awful lot of Pakistanis don't like the
Taliban, or Al Qaeda, or their govt. We need to make use of
those facts.

I applaud the U.N. relief agencies' decision.
I truly believe that the U.N. relief workers should be
evacuated post haste, and all the food stocks and other
materials which cannot be taken out with them should be
destroyed.

Uhh... innocent people will die. Remember, Al Qaeda kills more
Muslims than non-Muslims. And every time they attack they make
more enemies. I do believe a lot of Pakistanis died in that
attack, didn't they?

Remember, when the USSR pulled out of Afghanistan they didn't
settle back and rest, they expanded.



BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... If Jesus was Jewish, why did they give him a Mexican name?
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
* Origin: Doc's Place BBS Fido Since 1991 docsplace.tzo.com (1:123/140)

Hi Bob,

On Fri 2039-Jan-07 12:06, BOB KLAHN (1:123/140) wrote to RICHARD WEBB:

<snip>

Indeed! IT takes trained troops, it takes willpower, it
takes building of infrastructure, the things we're failing
to do in Afghanistan.

Don't forget, nationbuilding is not good. Nationbuilding is bad. Nationbuilding is the work of Satan. We know that because right
wingers tell us so.

IT has its downside, I'd agree there, but something *must*
be done in that region, and the better thing to do is
provide the troops and resources necessary to do just that.
PEople who have a future that is other than bleak don't have as much motivation
to fight to the point of their own
destruction.

Best to just let them live in anarchy and grow hard and bitter and
hate filled... what can they do, we are protected by oceans, aren't
we?

That ocean isn't a whole lot of protection these days,
especially when we listen to folks moan and groan as they
bring them over here on student visas and whatever else.

I'm still waiting to see that freedom for KUwait we fought
for ya know. LEt's either do it right, or bring the young
men and women home.

<snip>

FUnny but nobody has anything to say about that.

After Kuwait I was thinking, the next president should vow that no American soldier would be sent to fight, and put his life on the
line, and maybe die, unless it's for democracy for the
country they are fighting for.

I've always hoped for that one. iF that's not what we're
fighting for I don't want the young folks going there to
die, for *any* other reason. NO other reason is worth it
imho. But, now we have a situation where we must do just
that, because there are a couple of failed states that
we've either two choices: Nation building or annihilation.
Funny how we went in my little over half a century lifetime
from being a beacon of freedom and justice to the world to
being vilified and considered inept. WHat happened to that
beacon for liberty and justice we herad about in our civics
lessons? IT got snuffed out, and then sold as parts for cheap oil.

The Emir of Kuwait would not have been allowed to return by my
rules.

MIne either, but he did return. Even then I was saying to
folks that they shouldn't confuse dying for oil with
fighting for freedom.

<snip>

Maybe just do some precision surgery of the Pakistan
intelligence service.

There's a thought. ISI essentially operates with autonomy.

Exactly my thought.

Appears they're gonna be running the show in the whole
country anyway.

<snip>

this is true, but they'll continue to fail unless something
drastic is made to happen. Had to pause while writing this
msg for the xyl to read me an article from this morning's
paper. Seems the government over there is breaking up.
THe more moderates are bailing out of parliament and the
cabinet twould appear.

From what I have heard about that, the parties that are bailing
out are not planning to bring down the government. None of them
want to be responsible for bringing back the military rule.

RIght, but the military will rule over there, and I'm not
sure which way that one will go yet.

OTOH, we need to rein in India's nuke activities also. Damn so
much we need to do.

RIght, but isn't some of India's nuke activity power
generation related as well?

Right, and the way to rein in INdia's nuclear ambition is
to deal with the failed state which is their neighbor.

I suspect India would still want to be the dominant power so they
would keep the nukes. They all need to be under world
pressure.

Probably, but if I had to make a choice I'd just as soon
INdia have the whip hand.

Regards,
Richard
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: (1:116/901)

"Richard Webb -> BOB KLAHN" <1:116/901> wrote in news:113 $CONTROVERSIAL@JamNNTPd:

Indeed! IT takes trained troops, it takes willpower, it
takes building of infrastructure, the things we're failing
to do in Afghanistan.

Don't forget, nationbuilding is not good. Nationbuilding is bad.
Nationbuilding is the work of Satan. We know that because right
wingers tell us so.

IT has its downside, I'd agree there, but something *must*
be done in that region, and the better thing to do is
provide the troops and resources necessary to do just that.
PEople who have a future that is other than bleak don't have as much motivation to fight to the point of their own
destruction.

You forgot one factor.
Religious fanaticism.

You know who just returned to Iraq, to huzzahs and celebrations?

Al-Sadr.
Remember him?
The fundy Shiite cleric who was telling his bunch of merry mutants to
attack Americans in Iraq.

Like Rachel Maddow said, we now have West Iran.

--- Xnews/5.04.25
* Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)

Hello ROss,

On Sat 2039-Jan-08 12:11, Ross Sauer (1:123/789) wrote to Richard Webb:

<snip>

Nationbuilding is the work of Satan. We know that because right
wingers tell us so.

IT has its downside, I'd agree there, but something *must*
be done in that region, and the better thing to do is
provide the troops and resources necessary to do just that.
PEople who have a future that is other than bleak don't have as much motivation to fight to the point of their own
destruction.

You forgot one factor.
Religious fanaticism.

You know who just returned to Iraq, to huzzahs and celebrations?

Al-Sadr.
Remember him?
The fundy Shiite cleric who was telling his bunch of merry mutants
to attack Americans in Iraq.

OF course, more of the same. IF he or other like minded
folks can gain control of the government we can do the same
shit over again in a few years, for the same reasons we did
last time, for the oil of course.

Like Rachel Maddow said, we now have West Iran.

Ain't it cute?

Regards,
Richard
... A word to the wise isn't necessary. It's the dumb ones that need it.
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: (1:116/901)

Don't forget, nationbuilding is not good. Nationbuilding is bad.
Nationbuilding is the work of Satan. We know that because right
wingers tell us so.

Others agree, but for differing reasons:

I had never read Sun Tzu before. If this is the best he does, I
am glad I didn't waste my time.

III. Attack by Stratagem

1. Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best
thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and
intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too,
it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy
it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire
than to destroy them.

...

7. With his forces intact he will dispute the mastery of
the Empire, and thus, without losing a man, his triumph
will be complete. This is the method of attacking by
stratagem.

...


BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... Think of yourself as an organic pain receptacle on it's way to oblivion...> --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
* Origin: Doc's Place BBS Fido Since 1991 docsplace.tzo.com (1:123/140)

...

5. The general, unable to control his irritation, will launch his
men to the assault like swarming ants, with the result that
one-third of his men are slain, while the town still remains
untaken. Such are the disastrous effects of a siege.

YEp, and here in the new world we have "remember the
alamo!" a perfect example of this.

The fortified position has always been the easiest to defend,
and the hardest to take. The Mexican Army could have taken the
Alamo easily if they used cannon against it. Whether they held
off on the cannon or it didn't arrive until late, I don't know.
But once they did use the cannon the Alamo fell easily.

A narrow passage, where the attackers are limited in access is
another example. A few can stop a multitude. The Spartan 300
at Thermopylae were the prime example of that. That was both
narrow and fortified.

Though in the actual battles the estimates of Greek strength
were from about 5000 to 11000, and at the final battle, about
1400 to 3000. Using the 1400 figure, only 300 were Spartans,
though. The rest Thespians and Thebans.

Go back to the Roman Bridge. When the Etruscans attacked Rome
they were stopped at a bridge by three Romans. They delayed the
invasion long enough for the Roman engineers to knock down the
bridge and save Rome. There is a painting, "Oath of Horatii" in
the Louvre, and a smaller version by the same artist at the
Toledo Museum of Art, depicting the three soldiers taking an
oath to defend Rome to the death.

The Bridge at Remagan was another example.



BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... It's the cats' house. We just pay the mortgage.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
* Origin: Doc's Place BBS Fido Since 1991 docsplace.tzo.com (1:123/140)

HI Bob,

On Sat 2039-Jan-15 12:20, BOB KLAHN (1:123/140) wrote to RICHARD WEBB:

untaken. Such are the disastrous effects of a siege.

YEp, and here in the new world we have "remember the
alamo!" a perfect example of this.

The fortified position has always been the easiest to defend, and
the hardest to take. The Mexican Army could have taken the Alamo
easily if they used cannon against it. Whether they held off on the
cannon or it didn't arrive until late, I don't know. But once they
did use the cannon the Alamo fell easily.

I've read conjecture having it both ways on the question of
the cannon on that one. But, as you note, a fortified
position, or a narrow passage are both showstoppers.
<big snip>

Go back to the Roman Bridge. When the Etruscans attacked Rome they
were stopped at a bridge by three Romans. They delayed the invasion
long enough for the Roman engineers to knock down the bridge and
save Rome. There is a painting, "Oath of Horatii" in the Louvre,
and a smaller version by the same artist at the Toledo Museum of
Art, depicting the three soldiers taking an oath to defend Rome to
the death.

YEp, destroy the bridge then troops have to figure another
way in <grin>.

More later when I'm not getting my rear end kicked by this
bug.



Regards,
Richard
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: (1:116/901)