so it's 2021..

i dug up a IBM 365ED laptop, a modem, dialing up into this bulletin board that I discovered is a FIDONET hub.. and here I am

while I think this is better in the DOS/WIN95 subs, but is this considered classic?

I've been learning more and more about computer history, and im inrtigued how much CP/M (and DOS) have borrowed fro the PDP-11, my minicomputer eperience
is next to nill with them having been largely abandoned in places where I could play with them...

(save for a VT-100 terminal or an old teletype / printer that we used in CS class)

cheers all

- Steve Host
Guelph Ontario CANADA
--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

On 26 Jun 2021, Stan Hosdar said the following...

so it's 2021..

i dug up a IBM 365ED laptop, a modem, dialing up into this bulletin
board that I discovered is a FIDONET hub.. and here I am

while I think this is better in the DOS/WIN95 subs, but is this
considered classic?

I don't feel comfortable commenting on that.

I've been learning more and more about computer history, and im
inrtigued how much CP/M (and DOS) have borrowed fro the PDP-11, my minicomputer eperience is next to nill with them having been largely abandoned in places where I could play with them...

This I feel comfortable commenting on. I love PDPs.

SIMH (http://simh.trailing-edge.com/) can emulate many old computers and associated peripherals, just one of them being a PDP-11. You'll
need an OS, such as RSX-11 (http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone/index.php?option=com_content&view=cat egory&id=56&Itemid=324)
and probably some manuals (http://mim.update.uu.se/manuals/rsx/).

It can even run on a Raspberry Pi. And speaking of which,there's also the PiDP-11, a miniature PDP-11 front panel that you can build around a Pi (https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11). There's also a
PiDP-8, if you want to go back even further.

Good luck!

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Stan Hosdar wrote to All <=-

i dug up a IBM 365ED laptop, a modem, dialing up into this bulletin
board that I discovered is a FIDONET hub.. and here I am

while I think this is better in the DOS/WIN95 subs, but is this
considered classic?

Works for me - congrats on the Thinkpad find, I love those old laptops.

I've been learning more and more about computer history, and im
inrtigued how much CP/M (and DOS) have borrowed fro the PDP-11, my minicomputer eperience is next to nill with them having been largely abandoned in places where I could play with them...

Have you seen the 3d-printed PDP faceplate driven by a Raspberry Pi? Looks like you could get your PDP fix without having to run old iron.

One of my first computer science classes was assembler on a PDP, I'm tempted to fire up an emulator and type in my old programs.

(save for a VT-100 terminal or an old teletype / printer that we used
in CS class)

I lament the loss of Weirdstuff Warehouse - it was a store that, back in the '90s to 2010 or so was a treasure trove of old hardware. Stacks of Sun Pizza box systems, old HP Apollo and DEC Alpha systems, old rackmount servers, and you could usually find a serial terminal or two lurking in the back, most likely a Wyse 50.


... Consider different fading systems
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

On 26 Jun 2021, Stan Hosdar said the following...

so it's 2021..

while I think this is better in the DOS/WIN95 subs, but is this
considered classic?

I think what is *classic* depends on when/what the individual cut their teeth on. For me anything <= 486 is classic (although that's edging up to the first gen Pentiums these days). There are kids today that think a P4 is classic, and then there's the old greybeards that don't consider it classic unless is drew 10KW and used paper tape.

Do what you like and don't worry about labels :).
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/06/21 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (1:105/420)

Jeff Thiele wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-

On 27 Jun 2021, Kurt Weiske said the following...

Have you seen the 3d-printed PDP faceplate driven by a Raspberry Pi?
Looks like you could get your PDP fix without having to run old iron.

I haven't seen a 3d-printed one. I'm inclined to think you may be referring to Oscar Vermeulen's PiDP-11, but that one's not 3d-printed.

That's the one. My mistake.



... Abandon desire
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

On 28 Jun 2021, Kurt Weiske said the following...

I haven't seen a 3d-printed one. I'm inclined to think you may be referring to Oscar Vermeulen's PiDP-11, but that one's not 3d-printed

That's the one. My mistake.

Ah, ok. Nevertheless, it's an awesome device! The soldering isn't too difficult, but a little challenging on the switches because there's an aesthetic component as well; they need to be as perfectly straight as
possible.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

I don't feel comfortable commenting on that.

Understood :)

need an OS, such as RSX-11

what OS did a pdp-11 run? in particular what OS did cpm (and dos, etc) emulate with it's .com, .exe and other similar command lines?
--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Works for me - congrats on the Thinkpad find, I love those old laptops.

People at work just give me old stuff....... which I don't mind

while this may delve into the classic era once I found, give away at University, a CP/m 1.0 and DOS 1.1 manual and disk.... the disks were backups.. not originals... sold them for $300 USD years later..

kind of classic micro computing era.

Been wathcing a LOT of the Computer Chronicles on youtube... as a Canadian this was not avalabel to us that I can remember... what a show.
--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

I think what is *classic* depends on when/what the individual cut their tee on. For me anything <= 486 is classic (although that's edging up to the fi gen Pentiums these days). There are kids today that think a P4 is classic, and then there's the old greybeards that don't consider it classic unless i drew 10KW and used paper tape.

At work, two years ago, a new CNC showed up..... with OS/2 Warp for a HMI.... seriously... no one knows os/2 anymore and I didn't even use it when dabbling in win95, DOS, etc.... so I have had to learn it.

Machine is from 1999.. os/2 is clearly in the classic era of GUI experimentation... woo drag and drop...

i'm considered old beause i grew up on DOS.... and it's layered variants..

to me the classic era is the early OS era, 8 bit micrcomputers, and minicomputer era... minicomputers without CRT displays scare and confuse me... such a foreign concept but i'm genuinely intrigued..
--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Hello, Richard Falken.
On 01/07/21 03:18 you wrote:

Operating Systems supported: Unix 1 to 7. System III BSD 2.x
RSX-11 RSTS/E RT-11

Plus the RSX11-M-PLUS, the multiuser/multitasking version of RSX11.

There are still someone that develop on it, like Johnny Billquist (TCP/IP stack and apps).

Moreover there is a world decnet (HECnet) network over tcp/udp that links all the decnet capable computers. :)

http://mim.update.uu.se/

--
Ciao.
Fabio.
--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: ]\/[imac Boss Android Point (2:335/364.3)

On 30 Jun 2021, Stan Hosdar said the following...

need an OS, such as RSX-11

what OS did a pdp-11 run? in particular what OS did cpm (and dos, etc) emulate with it's .com, .exe and other similar command lines?

I don't know that the extensions are going to match up quite the same (especially since the difference between a .COM and a .EXE has to do with the 8086's segmented memory architecture, which the PDP-11 did not have).

However, there were may OSs available for the PDP-11. RSX-11 is CP/M-like,
the most notable shared command being PIP.

The PiDP-11 comes with a bunch of operating systems already set up (see https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11-building-instructions
in the "Prepare your Pi" section). It has disk images and configuration for several OSs. I think after you unzip the archive, the are in the systems/ folder.

The PiDP-11 allows selection of an OS at boot-time via particular combinations of panel switches, and uses a customized version of SIMH to interact with the front panel. However, it all works without the front panel, too.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 01 Jul 2021 at 03:18a, Richard Falken pondered and said...

By the way, the original Rogue, the namer of the roguelike game genre,
was originally developped on a PDP-11 running Unix V6.

That doesn't sound right to me. Rogue began life on a VAX
running BSD Unix, not 6th Edition. Adventure almost certainly
made an appearance on the PDP-11 pretty early on, perhaps in
the Research days, but rogue would have come later; after all,
it uses curses.

http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11#Unix_based_Operating_Systems

Operating Systems supported:

Unix 1 to 7.

One must be careful with nomenclature here: these are research
Unix versions, properly called "Editions" based on the edition
oft he Unix programmers manual that was current when they were
cut.

Similarly, the other DEC OS's listed had other versions; e.g.,
RSX-11 also had RSX-11m etc. An interesting historical tidbit
is that RSX-11m was written by Dave Cutler (then at Dupont),
who went to Digital and wrote VMS for the VAX. After leaving
DEC, he went to Microsoft, where he was the primary architect
of Windows NT (WNT = V+1, M+1, S+1). The internal structure
of NT is very similar to the internal structure of VMS.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (3:770/100)

On 30 Jun 2021 at 08:57p, Stan Hosdar pondered and said...

what OS did a pdp-11 run? in particular what OS did cpm (and dos, etc) emulate with it's .com, .exe and other similar command lines?

Kildall was, I believe, mostly influenced by RSTS/E on the
PDP-11. My guess is that he heard about PIP (Peripheral
Interchange Program) there.

Gates and Allen were familiar with TOPS-10 from using the
PDP-10 at Harvard (and I seem to recall Gates's private
school in Seattle had access to some powerful -- for the
time -- mainframe-class machine, but I may be misremembering).
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (3:770/100)

Re: Re: what's classic now?
By: Stan Hosdar to Jeff Thiele on Wed Jun 30 2021 08:57 pm

what OS did a pdp-11 run? in particular what OS did cpm (and dos, etc) emula

PDP-11s counld run a variety of operating systems, including Unix 5 and BSD 2.x.

It is common to bind BSD 2.11 images for PDP-11 emulators. I think it is amazing that, to this day, BSD 2 is still somehow maintained.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

Re: Re: what's classic now?
By: Richard Falken to Stan Hosdar on Thu Jul 01 2021 03:07 am

Re: Re: what's classic now?
By: Stan Hosdar to Jeff Thiele on Wed Jun 30 2021 08:57 pm

what OS did a pdp-11 run? in particular what OS did cpm (and dos, etc) em

PDP-11s counld run a variety of operating systems, including Unix 5 and BSD 2.x.

It is common to bind BSD 2.11 images for PDP-11 emulators. I think it is amazing that, to this day, BSD 2 is still somehow maintained.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

By the way, the original Rogue, the namer of the roguelike game genre, was originally developped on a PDP-11 running Unix V6.

For an expanded answer to the original question:

http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11#Unix_based_Operating_Systems

Operating Systems supported:

Unix 1 to 7.
System III
BSD 2.x
RSX-11
RSTS/E
RT-11

The site mentions that BSD 2.11 would be the best fit for loading Unix on a PDP-11 nowadays.


--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

Here's the current state of my PDP-8 FPGA project:
https://youtu.be/cfQxtfuVsAA

I've got the front panel and 4K RAM working. It can't execute any opcodes yet (that's next!) but the front panel can be used to manipulate and view
registers and RAM.

The hardware is a Xilinx Spartan6-based development board with an IO shield on top. Since the Spartan6 line is discontinued, these are fairly cheap boards
(as FPGA boards go); both together were about $100.

The board is a Chinese clone of the once-crowdfunded-but-now-obsolete Mojo board and works with the Mojo IDE. The Mojo IDE requires a free version of Xilinx ISE and allows use of either Verilog or Lucid (a hardware description language peculiar to Alchitry Labs).

Alchitry Labs' current selection of FPGA development boards are the Cu, Au,
and Au+. They're more modern and capable than the Mojo, but more expensive. However, projects should be fairly easy to move from the Mojo to these newer boards if one desired and the IO shield for the newer boards is functionally identical to the Mojo IO shield, but significantly smaller physically.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Jeff Thiele wrote to Stan Hosdar <=-

Here's the current state of my PDP-8 FPGA project:

That's really cool. The oldest computer I've used is a VAX.

-- Sean

___ MultiMail/Win v0.52
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Outpost BBS * bbs.outpostbbs.net:10123 (1:18/200)

On 01 Jul 2021 at 06:13p, Richard Falken pondered and said...

Re: Re: what's classic now?
By: Dan Cross to Richard Falken on Fri Jul 02 2021 03:01 am

That doesn't sound right to me. Rogue began life on a VAX
running BSD Unix, not 6th Edition. Adventure almost certainly
made an appearance on the PDP-11 pretty early on, perhaps in
the Research days, but rogue would have come later; after all,
it uses curses.

I sourced that information from the Early Roguelike Gallery. John Elwin
is trying very hard to keep a living museum of early rogue(likes) so if you have a valid source for that claim, he will LOVE to hear about it
and make the necessary corrections.

Well, the original authors were Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy,
with some input from Ken Arnold. Arnold wrote the curses
library that they built Rogue on top of at Berkeley. Rogue is
from 1980, 6th Edition Unix was '74 (tapes went out in '75),
7th Ed was '78 (tapes distributed outside of Bell Labs in '79),
and 32V (Unix ported to run on the VAX) later in '79. Joy
and Baboglu did virtual memory support in 3.0 BSD (before
TCP/IP!) towards the end of '79. Ken Arnold wrote curses while
at Berkeley, where he was a student from '79 to '83. The
earliest reference to curses that I can find is from 2.79BSD,
which is April 1980, though there are claims that there was
a paper written in 1977; I'm not sure I buy that, though, as I
can't find a good source for that time frame. In the original
curses paper from 2.79, Arnold gives credit to Bill Joy for
what is obviously termcap, which was done for `vi`. So I
think it's safe to assume that the work that went into curses
was probably done ~1979.

2.79 also includes a document from Michael Toy describing
rogue; Glenn Wichman has a history document describing the
history of `rogue` here: http://www.digital-eel.com/deep/A_Brief_History_of_Rogue.htm
Note the references to starting with curses; so whenever
Rogue was written, it post-dates curses, and a lot of
contemporary accounts put it in 1980: 6th Ed was long in
the tooth by then.

I found a site called "rlgallery.org" which is a "Roguelike
Gallery" and has some history notes that claim development
in 1981 through 1983, but with no citations save some really
sketchy link to a gamesutra article. I can't find any references
to 6th Edition beyond the rlgallery.org notes, but that doesn't
make a lot of sense to me, as I said before: if that early
work were done on a PDP-11, I imagine it would have been running
2BSD (any college in the UC system could have gotten the tape).

So yeah. I'm not buying that it was originally written for 6th
Ed. That just doesn't make a lot of sense.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (3:770/100)

On 01 Jul 2021, Sean Dennis said the following...

Here's the current state of my PDP-8 FPGA project:

That's really cool. The oldest computer I've used is a VAX.

I worked with DEC Alphas for a few years, but have only encountered architectures older than that as a hobbyist. SIMH will emulate a VAX, but the problem is in acquiring the OS. HP (which bought Compaq, which bought DEC) still requires a license to use VMS. Up until fairly recently they had a hobbyist program through which one could get a non-commercial hobbyist
license for free, but they discontinued it. I'm not sure what, if anything, took its place.

I completed all but the Extended Arithmetic Element opcodes yesterday; it was much easier than I thought it would be.

I have, however, run into a small snag. The Mojo IO Shield uses all of the available IO pins, so there are none left for peripherals such as an SD card
or a serial port. I figure I have 4 options:

1. Try to use IO pins for unused switches or LEDs, despite those components being hardwired in;
2. Make a new fron panel from scratch with only the necessary components
(which I could, of course, make any size and with any layout that I'd like);
3. Forgo the front panel altogether; or
4. Move everything to an Alchitry Au/Au+ FPGA board which has more IO pins
and a virtually identical IO shield, but is physically almost ridiculously and unusably small.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Hello Jeff,

Friday July 02 2021 09:29, you wrote to me:

I worked with DEC Alphas for a few years, but have only encountered architectures older than that as a hobbyist. SIMH will emulate a VAX,
but the problem is in acquiring the OS. HP (which bought Compaq, which bought DEC) still requires a license to use VMS. Up until fairly
recently they had a hobbyist program through which one could get a non-commercial hobbyist license for free, but they discontinued it.
I'm not sure what, if anything, took its place.

I know little about this myself but I have heard of something called OpenVMS. Would that be an option?

I completed all but the Extended Arithmetic Element opcodes
yesterday;
it was much easier than I thought it would be.

It's great when a project is successful and easier than you thought.

I have, however, run into a small snag. The Mojo IO Shield uses all
of
the available IO pins, so there are none left for peripherals such as
an SD card or a serial port. I figure I have 4 options:

It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Hopefully one of the options, while not perfect, will work to get the problem fixed.

-- Sean

... WinErr 01F: Reserved for future mistakes of our developers.
--- GoldED/2 3.0.1
* Origin: Outpost BBS * bbs.outpostbbs.net:10123 (1:18/200)

On 02 Jul 2021 at 11:08a, Sean Dennis pondered and said...

I worked with DEC Alphas for a few years, but have only encountered architectures older than that as a hobbyist. SIMH will emulate a VAX, but the problem is in acquiring the OS. HP (which bought Compaq, whic bought DEC) still requires a license to use VMS. Up until fairly recently they had a hobbyist program through which one could get a non-commercial hobbyist license for free, but they discontinued it. I'm not sure what, if anything, took its place.

I know little about this myself but I have heard of something called OpenVMS. Would that be an option?

OpenVMS was the marketing name for VMS after the introduction
of the Alpha. VAX/VMS 5.x was current when the Alpha was
introduced, and OpenVMS AXP V1.0 is what DEC ported to their
new platform and shipped initially. Starting with VMS 6.0,
DEC renamed the two versions OpenVMS VAX and OpenVMS AXP,
respectively.

OpenVMS was available under the hobbyist program for quite some
time, but the last VAX release was 7.3. After Compaq acquired
DEC, they ported VMS to the Itanium platform; this was right
before the HP acquisition. OpenVMS remained available for both
Alpha and Itanium up through version 8.4.

After HP enterprise announced they were dropping support for
VMS, a new company with former DEC and HP engineers (and I image
a few new folks as well) got started called VSI: they've been
actively working on porting VMS to x86_64 and are continuing the
hobbyist (or something kind of equivalent). Unfortunately, the
VSI "Community License Program" doesn't cover VAX processors, so
there are no more hobbyist licenses for VAX versions of VMS.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (3:770/100)

On 01 Jul 2021, Sean Dennis said the following...

That's really cool. The oldest computer I've used is a VAX.

On the other side of the Great Digital Divide, Hercules is an IBM System/360 emulator that will run on something as small as a Raspberry Pi. MVS 3.8j
(circa 1980?) is available for it, and you can download a full system ready
to go. YouTube user Moshix has a lengthy and excellent series of videos that talk you through just about anything you could want to do.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 02 Jul 2021, Sean Dennis said the following...

I have, however, run into a small snag. The Mojo IO Shield uses all of
the available IO pins, so there are none left for peripherals such as an SD card or a serial port. I figure I have 4 options:

It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Hopefully one of the options, while not perfect, will work to get the problem fixed.

I think I'm going for the homemade panel, and have ordered parts.

The plus is that I can 3D-print the panel itself, with labels for everything, and have plenty of pins left over. I can also have different-colored LEDs, to group the switches into sets of 3 for a DECish look.

Now that the FPGA dev board is independent of the front panel, I've been
doing a lot of thinking about that, too.

My ultimate goal is to make this into a FidoNet-capable BBS, which in this
day and age implies BINKP. The Mojo board that I'm using has only 64K of RAM, of which I'm using 48K as 32K 12-bit words. This should work great. My end
goal is to make a PDP8-based, FidoNet-capable BBS.

However, I also have the Alchitry Au+ board, with far more resources than the Mojo, including 256K of RAM. That's enough to host multiple PDP-8 cores, and
a button could be added to the front panel to switch between which core is connected to the front panel at any time, along with some LEDs to indicate
the "active" core. That would be extremely helpful if, for example, I wanted one PDP-8 to handle BBS duties but another to fetch, process, and send BINKP packets. I'll need to research how PDP-8s were networked back in the day, but it seems like a serial connection would work as the bare minimum.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Re: Re: what's classic now?
By: Dan Cross to Richard Falken on Fri Jul 02 2021 01:41 pm

On 01 Jul 2021 at 06:13p, Richard Falken pondered and said...

Re: Re: what's classic now?
By: Dan Cross to Richard Falken on Fri Jul 02 2021 03:01 am

That doesn't sound right to me. Rogue began life on a VAX
running BSD Unix, not 6th Edition. Adventure almost certainly
made an appearance on the PDP-11 pretty early on, perhaps in
the Research days, but rogue would have come later; after all,
it uses curses.

I sourced that information from the Early Roguelike Gallery. John Elwin is trying very hard to keep a living museum of early rogue(likes) so if you have a valid
source for that claim, he will LOVE to hear about it
and make the necessary corrections.

Well, the original authors were Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy,
with some input from Ken Arnold. Arnold wrote the curses
library that they built Rogue on top of at Berkeley. Rogue is
from 1980, 6th Edition Unix was '74 (tapes went out in '75),
7th Ed was '78 (tapes distributed outside of Bell Labs in '79),
and 32V (Unix ported to run on the VAX) later in '79. Joy
and Baboglu did virtual memory support in 3.0 BSD (before
TCP/IP!) towards the end of '79. Ken Arnold wrote curses while
at Berkeley, where he was a student from '79 to '83. The
earliest reference to curses that I can find is from 2.79BSD,
which is April 1980, though there are claims that there was
a paper written in 1977; I'm not sure I buy that, though, as I
can't find a good source for that time frame. In the original
curses paper from 2.79, Arnold gives credit to Bill Joy for
what is obviously termcap, which was done for `vi`. So I
think it's safe to assume that the work that went into curses
was probably done ~1979.

2.79 also includes a document from Michael Toy describing
rogue; Glenn Wichman has a history document describing the
history of `rogue` here: http://www.digital-eel.com/deep/A_Brief_History_of_Rogue.htm
Note the references to starting with curses; so whenever
Rogue was written, it post-dates curses, and a lot of
contemporary accounts put it in 1980: 6th Ed was long in
the tooth by then.

I found a site called "rlgallery.org" which is a "Roguelike
Gallery" and has some history notes that claim development
in 1981 through 1983, but with no citations save some really
sketchy link to a gamesutra article. I can't find any references
to 6th Edition beyond the rlgallery.org notes, but that doesn't
make a lot of sense to me, as I said before: if that early
work were done on a PDP-11, I imagine it would have been running
2BSD (any college in the UC system could have gotten the tape).

So yeah. I'm not buying that it was originally written for 6th
Ed. That just doesn't make a lot of sense.

I forwarded this message to ElwinR. He says he has evidence from the RRP that Rogue V3 was
developped on a PDP-11, and that it was Rogue V4 what was done on 4BSD on a VAX. He also agrees
he lacks reliable citations for claiming Unix V6 was the first platform on which Rogue was
developped so he is going to make some corrections on his site.

Cheers!


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