Some fifteen years later am going through the series again, now on DVD. Still such a great series. One question on the Z episode. Did Shadows prefer telepaths to run their vessels, they were better at it than "normals"? Anna was never written as a telepath but she was written to have been hooked up to drive a Shadow ship. Did the Shadows use non-telepaths in other ways in their vessels or is there an error in the writing? Btw, listening to the commentary
for that episode I'd say that the show's writing is not too talky at all. There always comes a time in a complicated story when you finally have to let the audience in on the big secret. Often, say in an action movie, like the Bond films, the expository fill-in is covered up by the villain gloating throughout it, but here I found Justin, Anna, and Morden's explanation not at all too long to hear out, even though I now know what's coming. It's three seasons of waiting for this moment so the payoff was worth it. What probably as as a sequence did trouble me for its brevity was how quickly Ivanova was able to bait the "Zog" First Ones into helping them.
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jack wrote:

Some fifteen years later am going through the series again, now on DVD.
Still such a great series.

It's amazing how well it takes watching multiple times.

One question on the Z episode. Did Shadows prefer telepaths to run
their vessels, they were better at it than "normals"? Anna was never
written as a telepath but she was written to have been hooked up to
drive a Shadow ship. Did the Shadows use non-telepaths in other ways
in their vessels or is there an error in the writing?

Use of telepaths in ships is used extensively in season 4. She might
have gotten special additions that allowed her to run a ship but I think
it more likely it was an error in continuity.

What probably as as a sequence did trouble me for its brevity was how
quickly Ivanova was able to bait the "Zog" First Ones into helping
them.

At that point in the series I went "Huh? That was too easy". Then
later when we met Lorien I went "so that's what that was about".
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On Saturday, November 17, 2012 2:52:21 PM UTC-5, jack wrote:

Some fifteen years later am going through the series again, now on DVD. =

Still such a great series. One question on the Z episode. Did Shadows pr= efer telepaths to run their vessels, they were better at it than "normals"?=
Anna was never written as a telepath but she was written to have been hoo= ked up to drive a Shadow ship. Did the Shadows use non-telepaths in other = ways in their vessels or is there an error in the writing? =20

I don't think it's an error, I think the Shadows actively started using tel= epaths in their ships when the League worlds started using them to jam thei=
r ships.

Jan
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"Jan" <janmschroeder@aol.com> wrote in message news:b3ac73dd-e006-421f-8a2b-8cbc2da7a777@googlegroups.com...
On Saturday, November 17, 2012 2:52:21 PM UTC-5, jack wrote:

Some fifteen years later am going through the series again, now on DVD. Still such a great series. One question on the Z episode. Did Shadows prefer telepaths to run their vessels, they were better at it than "normals"? Anna was never written as a telepath but she was written to
have been hooked up to drive a Shadow ship. Did the Shadows use non-telepaths in other ways in their vessels or is there an error in the writing?

I don't think it's an error, I think the Shadows actively started using telepaths in their ships when the League worlds started using them to jam their ships.
---
The way I read it was that the shadows were starting to try to get telepaths because they wanted to stop the Vorlon advantage of having telepaths that could stop ships. We'd seen shadow ships since season 1, and Ship of Tears didn't happen until late in Season 3, so it was a good probability that the Shadows were just starting to initiate that plan. That's why there was a
ship filled with "weapons components" when Sheridan, Bester, and company
went after the convoy -- they were moving experimental material for field testing.
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On 17/11/2012 19:52, jack wrote:

Some fifteen years later am going through the series again, now on DVD.

Still such a great series. One question on the Z episode. Did Shadows prefer
telepaths to run their vessels, they were better at it than "normals"? Anna was never written as a telepath but she was written to have been hooked up to drive a Shadow ship. Did the Shadows use non-telepaths in other ways in their vessels or is there an error in the writing? Btw, listening to the commentary
for that episode I'd say that the show's writing is not too talky at all. There always comes a time in a complicated story when you finally have to let the audience in on the big secret. Often, say in an action movie, like the Bond films, the expository fill-in is covered up by the villain gloating throughout it, but here I found Justin, Anna, and Morden's explanation not at all too long to hear out, even though I now know what's coming. It's three seasons of waiting for this moment so the payoff was worth it.
What pr
obably as as a sequence did trouble me for its brevity was how quickly Ivanova was able to bait the "Zog" First Ones into helping them.


The shadow ships were designed to be run by mundanes. It is only about
the time of "Ship of Tears" that the Shadows upgraded their CPUs.

Andrew Swallow
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On 24/02/2013 00:08, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote:

Previously on rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated, wrrlykam said:

The Shadows wiped out those with Narns the telepath gene a thousand years before. So they weren't using them at that point. If they used telepaths in their ships then that would be a massive waste of 'components'. I vaguely remember Garibaldi's head and neck areas being checked over after he went missing?

Yes.

Clearly Mundanes were the standard Shadow vessel components up to the developments revealed in Ship of Tears

I think what probably happened was in the prior cycle, only the Narn
had telepaths of sufficient strength and numbers to be a threat, so it
was easier for the Shadows to wipe them out. Since that war, the
Vorlons tinkered with the other races (they may have tinkered with the
Narn first, way back then) as part of their weapons program, seeding telepathy in the Humans, Minbari, and others.

We know from various places in the show and in the books that the
Vorlons did tinker with Humans, and there was evidence once in the 5th
season that they were still tinkering with other races at least through
the time in the second and third seasons (Lyta's memories while having
sex with Byron).

This time around, there were too many races with telepaths for the
Shadows to wipe them out, so instead they started to try to co-op them instead.

The other thing the Shadows did was invent the anti-telepath virus.
This would have infected all the human telepaths, remove the antidote
and they die. The Shadows would have been able to destroy the antidote factories within minutes using their ships. Bye bye human telepaths.

A suspicion that I have is that the anti-telepath virus can change
species, in the same way that the Shadow virus used by the Drahk can.
If so within 5 years all the telepaths in the galaxy would have been
infected and killed. A repeat of what probably happened to the Narn telepaths.

Andrew Swallow
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Previously on rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated, Andrew Swallow said:

This time around, there were too many races with telepaths for the
Shadows to wipe them out, so instead they started to try to co-op them instead.

The other thing the Shadows did was invent the anti-telepath virus.
This would have infected all the human telepaths, remove the antidote
and they die. The Shadows would have been able to destroy the antidote factories within minutes using their ships. Bye bye human telepaths.

Is that speculation, or is there evidence in the show that it was the
Shadows who "aided" in that? Because we never saw that at all until
after the Shadow War was over.

I have no doubt it's something the Shadows COULD have done, just
wondering if it's something that they DID do.

--
Jeffrey Kaplan www.gordol.org
Double ROT13 encoded for your protection

A critic is a man who knows the way, but can't drive the car.
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On Saturday, November 17, 2012 7:52:21 PM UTC, jack wrote:

Some fifteen years later am going through the series again, now on DVD. =

Still such a great series. One question on the Z episode. Did Shadows pr= efer telepaths to run their vessels, they were better at it than "normals"?=
Anna was never written as a telepath but she was written to have been hoo= ked up to drive a Shadow ship. Did the Shadows use non-telepaths in other = ways in their vessels or is there an error in the writing? =20

Just two more points to add that sprung to mind (just catching up on missed=
threads).

The Shadows wiped out those with Narns the telepath gene a thousand years b= efore. So they weren't using them at that point. If they used telepaths in = their ships then that would be a massive waste of 'components'. I vaguely r= emember Garibaldi's head and neck areas being checked over after he went mi= ssing?=20

Clearly Mundanes were the standard Shadow vessel components up to the devel= opments revealed in Ship of Tears
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On 24/02/2013 15:34, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote:

Previously on rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated, Andrew Swallow said:

This time around, there were too many races with telepaths for the
Shadows to wipe them out, so instead they started to try to co-op them
instead.

The other thing the Shadows did was invent the anti-telepath virus.
This would have infected all the human telepaths, remove the antidote
and they die. The Shadows would have been able to destroy the antidote
factories within minutes using their ships. Bye bye human telepaths.

Is that speculation, or is there evidence in the show that it was the
Shadows who "aided" in that? Because we never saw that at all until
after the Shadow War was over.

I have no doubt it's something the Shadows COULD have done, just
wondering if it's something that they DID do.

We were told aliens were involved but they did not say which aliens.

Andrew Swallow
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On Sunday, February 24, 2013 12:03:35 AM UTC-5, Andrew Swallow wrote:

On 24/02/2013 00:08, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote:
=20

Previously on rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated, wrrlykam said:

=20

=20

The Shadows wiped out those with Narns the telepath gene a thousand ye=

ars before. So they weren't using them at that point. If they used telepath=
s in their ships then that would be a massive waste of 'components'. I vagu= ely remember Garibaldi's head and neck areas being checked over after he we=
nt missing?

=20

=20

Yes.

=20

=20

Clearly Mundanes were the standard Shadow vessel components up to the =

developments revealed in Ship of Tears

=20

=20

I think what probably happened was in the prior cycle, only the Narn

=20

had telepaths of sufficient strength and numbers to be a threat, so it

=20

was easier for the Shadows to wipe them out. Since that war, the

=20

Vorlons tinkered with the other races (they may have tinkered with the

=20

Narn first, way back then) as part of their weapons program, seeding

=20

telepathy in the Humans, Minbari, and others.

=20

=20

We know from various places in the show and in the books that the

=20

Vorlons did tinker with Humans, and there was evidence once in the 5th

=20

season that they were still tinkering with other races at least through

=20

the time in the second and third seasons (Lyta's memories while having

=20

sex with Byron).

=20

=20

This time around, there were too many races with telepaths for the

=20

Shadows to wipe them out, so instead they started to try to co-op them

=20

instead.

=20

=20
=20
=20
The other thing the Shadows did was invent the anti-telepath virus.=20
=20
This would have infected all the human telepaths, remove the antidote=20
=20
and they die. The Shadows would have been able to destroy the antidote=

=20

=20
factories within minutes using their ships. Bye bye human telepaths.
=20
=20
=20
A suspicion that I have is that the anti-telepath virus can change=20
=20
species, in the same way that the Shadow virus used by the Drahk can.=20
=20
If so within 5 years all the telepaths in the galaxy would have been=20
=20
infected and killed. A repeat of what probably happened to the Narn=20
=20
telepaths.
=20
=20
=20
Andrew Swallow

A combination of that and the Narn Telepaths taking higher than average cas= ualties in the war against the Shadows back in the day. They were the front=
line fighters and as such would have taken a lot of the casualties, more s=
o as the Shadows surely targeted them as priority targets.=20

The Vorlons got this which was why they played some with modifying Telepath=
s from different races.
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