Hello!

I have to find a "very affordable" used car for a family
member (somewhere between US$ 1,000 and 2,500?) Ideally an old hatchback or perhaps a subcompact sedan. At this price point I realise that whatever he buys should be considered a temporary vehicle but if it lasts him a year or two, that would really help him out of a difficult spot.

Sadly I know very little about things with engines. I
can't even get my 2-stroke strimmer to start. :-| That said, he's more mechanically-minded than I am and I know he'd be able to patch up rusty bodywork and fix brakes, suspension and things.

Which manufacturers or models should we be looking at?
Do some have more simple engines than others? Affordable spares would be a plus. Any constructive suggestions or advice would be most welcome.

Thanks,
-Andy Ball

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Andy Ball wrote to All:

Hello!

I have to find a "very affordable" used car for a family
member (somewhere between US$ 1,000 and 2,500?) Ideally an old
hatchback or perhaps a subcompact sedan. At this price point I
realise that whatever he buys should be considered a temporary
vehicle but if it lasts him a year or two, that would really help him
out of a difficult spot.

My advice would be to go to a supermarket or a dedicated book store and
find a copy of an automotive consumer's report. Also find a copy of "Blue
Book" automotive values. Some cars are created equal and others are bad
news. You'll get the idea once you read blue book values.

Then there are such places as Craigslist.com, where people advertise cars
all the time. Some good, some bad and the old cliche' of 'Buyer Beware' applies. Others like "AutoTrader" publish a weekly magazine where you can
look at pictures and read what the owner has to say about it, how much
they want for it, etc.. Their magazine is usually published for a certain market, like; Chicago, Rockford, Los Angelos, San Francisco, Dallas and a
slew of smaller cities...you can find these on display stands at
restaurants, drug stores, etc...

Personally, I wouldn't consider anything that isn't made by Chevrolet, or
any of the other GM divisions. One caveat with GM products is to steer
away from (no pun) front wheel drive vehicles if you can. (I no longer own
any of those because they're harder to work on) Another option that
youngsters like to have today is a pickup truck. They're a dime a dozen
and you can find one almost anywhere. In fact, I have 5, rear wheel drive
Chevy vehicles and my daily driver (also my favorite) is a pickup.

Sadly I know very little about things with engines. I
can't even get my 2-stroke strimmer to start. :-| That said, he's
more mechanically-minded than I am and I know he'd be able to patch
up rusty bodywork and fix brakes, suspension and things.

Your trimmer's 2-stroke carburator is probably gummed up from sitting over
the winter months. You can find 2-stroke carburator cleaner at Home Depot and/or Lowes. When winter comes again, drain the tank and let the trimmer
run until it runs out of fuel. Put some gasoline stabalizer in it and in
the spring, drain it all again and fill with 2-stroke gas. It'll start
next year.

Which manufacturers or models should we be looking at?
Do some have more simple engines than others? Affordable spares
would be a plus. Any constructive suggestions or advice would be
most welcome.

Find a few potential cars that your family member (grandson?) would like
and come back for advice on those...


R\%/itt


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Re: Cheap Car

any of those because they're harder to work on) Another option that youngsters like to have today is a pickup truck. They're a dime a dozen
and you can find one almost anywhere. In fact, I have 5, rear wheel drive Chevy vehicles and my daily driver (also my favorite) is a pickup.

I also was thinking Chevy S-10 as basic and easy to work on. They seem to go forever.

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I have to find a "very affordable" used car for a family
member (somewhere between US$ 1,000 and 2,500?) Ideally an old hatchback or perhaps a subcompact sedan. At this price point I
realise that whatever he buys should be considered a temporary
vehicle but if it lasts him a year or two, that would really help him out of a difficult spot.

My advice would be to go to a supermarket or a dedicated book store and RW>find a copy of an automotive consumer's report. Also find a copy of "Blue RW>Book" automotive values. Some cars are created equal and others are bad RW>news. You'll get the idea once you read blue book values.

Just checked my 2013 CR Buyers guide.

Basicly look for a Toyota or a Honda and AVOID a GM or Chrylser and
most other Foreigh Cars

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Jim Haight wrote to Roy Witt:

Re: Cheap Car

any of those because they're harder to work on) Another option that
youngsters like to have today is a pickup truck. They're a dime a
dozen and you can find one almost anywhere. In fact, I have 5, rear
wheel drive Chevy vehicles and my daily driver (also my favorite) is a
pickup.

I also was thinking Chevy S-10 as basic and easy to work on. They
seem to go forever.

That'd work, but I would only buy the 94-200x model or a Colorado if he
can afford one.


R\%/itt


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TOM WALKER wrote to ROY WITT:

I have to find a "very affordable" used car for a family
member (somewhere between US$ 1,000 and 2,500?) Ideally an old
hatchback or perhaps a subcompact sedan. At this price point I
realise that whatever he buys should be considered a temporary
vehicle but if it lasts him a year or two, that would really
help him out of a difficult spot.

My advice would be to go to a supermarket or a dedicated book store
and find a copy of an automotive consumer's report. Also find a copy
of "Blue Book" automotive values. Some cars are created equal and
others are bad news. You'll get the idea once you read blue book
values.

Just checked my 2013 CR Buyers guide.

Basicly look for a Toyota or a Honda and AVOID a GM or Chrylser and
most other Foreigh Cars

Which is typical for Consumers Reports...they must have Japanese owners
or a majority of share holders, since they have never recommended American vehicles. Never in the last 50 years that I've scanned their pages. And Japanese cars used to be no better than their 'beer can' toys.



R\%/itt


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Thanks for the advice. So far what I've read here meshes
with what I've heard from people I've asked in person: some like American cars (usually GM/Chevrolet) and some recommend Honda with Toyota as a close second.

Are American cars easier to work on than Japanese ones or does that depend entirely on the model? Are Japanese cars less prone to rust? I'm intrigued.

-Andy Ball

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I have to find a "very affordable" used car for a family
member (somewhere between US$ 1,000 and 2,500?) Ideally an old AB>> hatchback or perhaps a subcompact sedan. At this price point I AB>> realise that whatever he buys should be considered a temporary AB>> vehicle but if it lasts him a year or two, that would really
help him out of a difficult spot.

My advice would be to go to a supermarket or a dedicated book store RW>> and find a copy of an automotive consumer's report. Also find a copy RW>> of "Blue Book" automotive values. Some cars are created equal and
others are bad news. You'll get the idea once you read blue book
values.

Just checked my 2013 CR Buyers guide.

Basicly look for a Toyota or a Honda and AVOID a GM or Chrylser and most other Foreigh Cars

Which is typical for Consumers Reports...they must have Japanese owners RW>or a majority of share holders, since they have never recommended American RW>vehicles. Never in the last 50 years that I've scanned their pages. And RW>Japanese cars used to be no better than their 'beer can' toys.

Well the Stats do not LIE, and they are compiled from actual Owners
opinions NOT the Editorial Staff.

YES Japanese cars used to be pretty bad. I embember the origional Toyo
Pet cars imported to Hawaii. But things have changed. With out a doubt,
despite what you GM lovers think, the Toyota and Honda are better
quality cars than the GM or Chrysler Product.

The Only down side is that the Toyota and Hondas cost more on the Used
Car Market becasue of the Superior Quality.

And as a side note the CU 2002-2011 "Used Cars To Avoid" listing has 30 Chevrolet models on it where as Toyota has 3 and Honda 2.
---
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Thanks for the advice. So far what I've read here meshes
with what I've heard from people I've asked in person: some like American ca AB>(usually GM/Chevrolet) and some recommend Honda with Toyota as a close secon AB>Are American cars easier to work on than Japanese ones or does that depend AB>entirely on the model? Are Japanese cars less prone to rust? I'm intrigued.

Since the toyots and Hondas most have the Side saddle engine and front
wheel drive they are harder to work on. BUT since typically they require
less work.
The old days of "easy to work" on vehicles are almost gone because of
the down sizing of Cars for better miledge.
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Andy Ball wrote to All:

Thanks for the advice. So far what I've read here meshes
with what I've heard from people I've asked in person: some like
American cars (usually GM/Chevrolet) and some recommend Honda with
Toyota as a close second.

My Chevrolet Service Manager friend, Harry recommends a Honda or a Toyota
for youngsters who have a mechanic in the family. His youngest daughter
drives a Honda that he bought for her after it was crashed. Parts for them
are more costly than for GM products because GM products are domestic and
so are the parts they use to build and repair them. Honda parts cost more because they have to be imported. Importation requires a duty (import
tax). His 2nd oldest daughter drives a GMC mini-pickup. Each one of his
girls got their choice, but he wouldn't have bought them what they wanted unless they were reliable. I forget what the oldest drives. His son,
before he was killed, drove a Chevy Silverado pickup and he rode a
motorcycle. His daddy tried to keep up with him, but he's a Harley
Davidson kinda guy (big and tall) and his son had one of those sports
bikes.

Since your young family member will be inclined to do his own work and his peers may own a Honda, he may be more acceptable to them in a Honda. If he
were my son, I'd recommend a pickup and tell him to find some pickup
truck fans.

Are American cars easier to work on than Japanese ones or does that depend entirely on the model?

I've never cared much for front wheel drive cars, since they're more
suseptible to breakage in abusive service. It seems that CV joints and suspension get in the way of horsepower and building them strong enough to
stay together.

Kids these days will abuse these cars because that's what their peers do. Street racing takes its toll on them, but if you're young, rich and mechanically inclined, that's no issue.

OTH, a pickup would be the easiest to work on since they're built like a conventional rear wheel drive vehicle has been built since inception.

They have a strong steel frame under them and not one unibody (frameless) vehicle among them. No unibodys to whither away under stressful condtions,
all engines and transmissions are aligned, one after the other and when
your youngster decides to leave home, he won't need a moving van.

Are Japanese cars less prone to rust? I'm intrigued.

LOL! That's only a problem if they're driven on salted roads, like in the
rust belt of America...Here in Texas they rust, but the rust is surface
rust as the hot sun burns the paint off of steel. This happens to all
cars, GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda and Toyota...In fact you can tell when a
car has been imported from up north, they already have rust.

I think it is Chrysler who is experimenting with coating steel bodies with
a rust inhibitor before painting them. It was AMC who started that back in
the 60s, but they didn't have much luck with it, as most AMC products disappeared from the roads within a few years due to rust that made their unibodys dangerous to drive.


R\%/itt


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TOM WALKER wrote to ROY WITT:

I have to find a "very affordable" used car for a
family member (somewhere between US$ 1,000 and 2,500?)
Ideally an old hatchback or perhaps a subcompact sedan. At AB>>> this price point I realise that whatever he buys should be
considered a temporary vehicle but if it lasts him a year
or two, that would really help him out of a difficult spot.

My advice would be to go to a supermarket or a dedicated book
store and find a copy of an automotive consumer's report. Also
find a copy of "Blue Book" automotive values. Some cars are
created equal and others are bad news. You'll get the idea once RW>>> you read blue book values.

Just checked my 2013 CR Buyers guide.

Basicly look for a Toyota or a Honda and AVOID a GM or Chrylser
and most other Foreigh Cars

Which is typical for Consumers Reports...they must have Japanese
owners or a majority of share holders, since they have never
recommended American vehicles. Never in the last 50 years that I've
scanned their pages. And Japanese cars used to be no better than
their 'beer can' toys.

Well the Stats do not LIE,

They do when you get them from CR...

and they are compiled from actual Owners opinions NOT the Editorial
Staff.

BS - watch the CR TV program and tell us how many owners are interviewed
there. If they wanted to reach a large audience, then that is where such
lies would be more convincing. Magazine circulation doesn't even compete.

YES Japanese cars used to be pretty bad. I embember the origional
Toyo Pet cars imported to Hawaii. But things have changed. With out a doubt, despite what you GM lovers think, the Toyota and Honda are
better quality cars than the GM or Chrysler Product.

Another lie. You forget that I worked in the industry for a time. What I witnessed to be true isn't what you're saying.

The Only down side is that the Toyota and Hondas cost more on the
Used Car Market becasue of the Superior Quality.

They cost more because they initially cost more. That may not be due to
any of them taking high profits, but it is certainly a possibilty.

And as a side note the CU 2002-2011 "Used Cars To Avoid" listing has
30 Chevrolet models on it where as Toyota has 3 and Honda 2.

I wouldn't give any positive credit to anything CU prints...


R\%/itt


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Hello Roy,

RW> Since your young family member will be inclined to do
> his own work and his peers may own a Honda, he may be
> more acceptable to them in a Honda.

The family member in question is 36, so he's younger
than I am but old enough that he shouldn't give a monkey's what the young people think is cool and trendy. He's fallen on hard times and our objective is something that will get him from A to B, that he can patch up should the need arise.

RW> ...a pickup would be the easiest to work on since
> they're built like a conventional rear wheel drive
> vehicle has been built since inception. They have a
> strong steel frame under them and not one unibody
>(frameless) vehicle among them.

I never knew that about pickups. I'm sure they burn a
lot more fuel but if I can find one for the right price it might still work for

him, since he wants it primarily for getting to and from work. Any thoughts on Gas Vs. Diesel for a pickup?

-Andy Ball

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Well the Stats do not LIE,

They do when you get them from CR...

Have you Ever Suibscriber to Consumer Reports???
The Stats are compiled from the Annual Survey of products Mailed to
each suscriber every year. It aslks spmewhat detailed question
about ones experiences, Repairs etc, about the Vehicle you own. It also
covers items you have in the household. Items like TV, Refigerators,
Washing machiens etc.

and they are compiled from actual Owners opinions NOT the Editorial Staff.

BS - watch the CR TV program and tell us how many owners are interviewed RW>there. If they wanted to reach a large audience, then that is where such RW>lies would be more convincing. Magazine circulation doesn't even compete.

Interwstihng that ANYONE that disagrees with you even slightly is
automaticlky a LIAR.
BUT this tiem, like the incident about when atv what miledge I changed
the sparkplug wires on my S-10 Truck you are TOTALLY WRONG!!!

YES Japanese cars used to be pretty bad. I embember the origional
Toyo Pet cars imported to Hawaii. But things have changed. With out a doubt, despite what you GM lovers think, the Toyota and Honda are better quality cars than the GM or Chrysler Product.

Another lie. You forget that I worked in the industry for a time. What I RW>witnessed to be true isn't what you're saying.

I don't care WHERE you worked. GM is known for producing Junk. They do
have some Fine cars but those are he exception instead of the Rule.
AND THAT FACT is proven from OWNERS opinions, and some mechanics.
My favored Transmission man out here in El Cajon states that he dod more replirs on the Tranny i nmy V-6 S-10 thna almsot any other
vtransmission. And I wil not even mention the joke turbo 200 tranny they
put in their cars for a while.

OPEN YOUR EYES and Smell the Roses.

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TOM WALKER wrote to ROY WITT:

Well the Stats do not LIE,

They do when you get them from CR...

Have you Ever Suibscriber to Consumer Reports???

Once.

The Stats are compiled from the Annual Survey of products Mailed to
each suscriber every year.

All owners of Japanese cars, no doubt. Thus the biased opinions printed in their publication.


R\%/itt


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Andy Ball wrote to Roy Witt:

Since your young family member will be inclined to do

his own work and his peers may own a Honda, he may be
more acceptable to them in a Honda.

The family member in question is 36, so he's younger
than I am but old enough that he shouldn't give a monkey's what the
young people think is cool and trendy. He's fallen on hard times and
our objective is something that will get him from A to B, that he can patch up should the need arise.

You're posting from Janis's BBS in New York, so I take it you're both in
the area?

...a pickup would be the easiest to work on since

they're built like a conventional rear wheel drive
vehicle has been built since inception. They have a
strong steel frame under them and not one unibody
(frameless) vehicle among them.

I never knew that about pickups. I'm sure they burn a
lot more fuel but if I can find one for the right price it might
still work for him, since he wants it primarily for getting to and
from work.

Some of the late model mini pickups do very well on mileage. They usually
have a 4 cyl engine and manual transmissions, which help with the fuel
mileage. A Toyota will bring a premium price, but they are very
dependable. So is a Chevrolet or GMC mini, as well as most of the other minis...

Any thoughts on Gas Vs. Diesel for a pickup?

My dad always stressed the point that a diesel is for a work truck. Such a truck would be expected to carry heavy loads and pull trailers on a daily basis. The drawbacks to a diesel are the higher cost of fuel and the more frequent maintainence required to keep the fuel system and engine oil
clean. Not an ideal situation if all you need is A to B transportation.

A gasoline engine that burns regular unleaded fuel will be cheaper to run
and cheaper to maintain with less frequent oil changes and the occasional
fuel filter change and a change of spark plugs around 80k miles. The only drawback is that it will get slightly less mpg than a diesel...but then,
the cost of gasoline vs diesel makes up for that.


R\%/itt


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Hello Roy,

RW> Since your young family member will be inclined to do
> his own work and his peers may own a Honda, he may be
> more acceptable to them in a Honda.

The family member in question is 36, so he's younger
than I am but old enough that he shouldn't give a monkey's what the young people think is cool and trendy. He's fallen on hard times and our objective is something that will get him from A to B, that he can patch up should the need arise.

RW> ...a pickup would be the easiest to work on since
> they're built like a conventional rear wheel drive
> vehicle has been built since inception. They have a
> strong steel frame under them and not one unibody
>(frameless) vehicle among them.

I never knew that about pickups. I'm sure they burn a
lot more fuel but if I can find one for the right price it might still work for him, since he wants it primarily for getting to and from work. Any thoughts on Gas Vs. Diesel for a pickup?

Vogtle> If you want cheep then go for gas, I had both a Ranger and a Datsun Hardbody as I was growing up and they were great. Never needing ramps
to work on them, getting parts for next to nothing at the scrap yard. even if
I had to buy new they were never expensive.

-Andy Ball

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Hello Roy,

RW> You're posting from Janis's BBS in New York, so I
> take it you're both in the area?

No. We're in Illinois.

RW> Some of the late model mini pickups do very well on
> mileage. They usually have a 4 cyl engine and manual
> transmissions, which help with the fuel mileage.

I invariably buy a manual but he can't drive stick, so
I'll have to find something automatic for him.

RW> The drawbacks to a diesel are the higher cost of fuel
> and the more frequent maintainence required to keep
> the fuel system and engine oil clean.

I've noticed that in the U.S. Diesel isn't consistently
less expensive than gasoline. I think that back home in the U.K. we taxed Diesel at a lower rate, to help industry out. I've heard that Diesel engines over here have "lower compression" that makes them less efficient, too.

-Andy Ball

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Andy Ball wrote to Roy Witt:

You're posting from Janis's BBS in New York, so I

take it you're both in the area?

No. We're in Illinois.

Ewwwww. I grew up in IL...snow and ice isn't my favorite weather. I left
IL in 1966 and have only been back to visit.

Some of the late model mini pickups do very well on

mileage. They usually have a 4 cyl engine and manual
transmissions, which help with the fuel mileage.

I invariably buy a manual but he can't drive stick, so
I'll have to find something automatic for him.

No time like the present to learn stick. It's not that hard to do.

The drawbacks to a diesel are the higher cost of fuel

and the more frequent maintainence required to keep
the fuel system and engine oil clean.

I've noticed that in the U.S. Diesel isn't consistently
less expensive than gasoline.

At one time it was. Early 1980s it was cheaper to buy than gasoline. But
it was awfully hard to find it when on the open road. I had one of those
GM diesel cars then and stopped at a truck stop and begged the guy to let
me buy from his truck pumps. My tank was nearly empty and those pumps are
set to pump a lot faster than a gasoline pump. The tank which had a 25
gallon capacity was full in less than a minute.

I think that back home in the U.K. we taxed Diesel at a lower rate,
to help industry out.

In Texas, diesel is taxed the same as gasoline. About 18-20cents/gallon.
The federal tax is much higher, but it's consistant across the country. My sister and BIL live just a few miles south of the Wisconsin border and
don't buy fuel in IL because it's too expensive. When I drive there to
visit, I always fill up in Clinton, IA and don't have to fuel up again if
I don't drive long distances when there. I stopped taking the shortcut
through St Louis because of the prices in IL.

I've heard that Diesel engines over here have "lower compression"
that makes them less efficient, too.

22.5:1 is low? Maybe diesels have changed since I owned one. My neighbor
has a Chevy Duramax diesel pickup that he says gets better milaage than
the gasoline pickup he had before it. Plus the performance is better than
the gasoline counterpart. The only thing he doesn't like is the urine injection, which cleans up the emissions, but makes fuel costs higher.


R\%/itt


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TOM WALKER wrote to ROY WITT:

Well the Stats do not LIE,

They do when you get them from CR...

Have you Ever Suibscriber to Consumer Reports???

Once.

The Stats are compiled from the Annual Survey of products Mailed to each suscriber every year.

All owners of Japanese cars, no doubt. Thus the biased opinions printed in RW>their publication.

LITSEN UP ROY!!!!!


The report is seperate report and it onlt shows what ACTUAL Car Owners
report as to what prolbems they have had with their Cars, TV's,
Applinaces etc.

IT IS IN NO WAY conected with the views of the editorial staff.
IT is a true depiction of what is happening in the REAL World.
What is so difficuly about to understand??
staff.
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Hello Roy,

RW> Ewwwww. I grew up in IL...snow and ice isn't my
> favorite weather. I left IL in 1966 and have only
> been back to visit.

We don't get as much snow as we used to.

RW> No time like the present to learn stick. It's not
> that hard to do.

I have suggested that but he needs a car now to get to
work every day and it'll probably take him a while to gain enough comfort in a "stick shift" to do that.

RW> 22.5:1 is low?

I'd have to look up some European cars to compare that
with. That's what I've been told though.

-Andy Ball

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Andy Ball wrote to Roy Witt:

Hello Roy,

Ewwwww. I grew up in IL...snow and ice isn't my

favorite weather. I left IL in 1966 and have only
been back to visit.

We don't get as much snow as we used to.

LOL! I remember snow in Illinois that covered up the 1st story of a house
and piled up to the roof when the wind blew. Times when you couldn't go anywhere because you couldn't get out the front door.

No time like the present to learn stick. It's not

that hard to do.

I have suggested that but he needs a car now to get to
work every day and it'll probably take him a while to gain enough
comfort in a "stick shift" to do that.

I have only one car that is a stick shift. It is cumbersome to drive if I haven't driven it in a while. My Z28 is a garage queen and doesn't get out
much around here.

22.5:1 is low?

I'd have to look up some European cars to compare that
with. That's what I've been told though.

Ideally a diesel compression ratio can be within a 15-20:1 ratio to be efficient. Of course, the higher number will be more efficient. Too high
and you get a compression damaging engine knock similar to a gasoline
engine with a 10-12:1 compression ratio using low octane gasoline. My GM
4.7L V8 diesel was 22.5:1. The problem I had with it was that it didn't generate enough torque to back up a small incline...

- = to


R\%/itt


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