• The new Radius, RFC

    From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to All on Wed Nov 26 02:45:45 2014
    I've had some time glancing through the source that Paul sent me, and have a lot of ideas about especially what parts I can remove.

    I was thinking primarily about removing everything POTS related. And, needless to say a bunch of other functions related to that such as Cost calculations and so on.

    What needs to be added is of course IPv6 support.

    Before I go about this giant enterprise, I would welcome any thoughts you can come up with.

    I'm not promising there will be anything but brainstorming here -- with Christmas coming up and all -- but I promise y'all I'll eventually give it my best shot, with your help! If nothing else, I should be able to issue a new version of Radius with a new version number... 8-)

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Bj”rn Felten on Wed Nov 26 12:04:28 2014
    Hi! Bj├╢rn,

    On 26/11/2014 11:45 AM, 2:203/2 wrote:

    I was thinking primarily about removing everything POTS related.
    And, needless to say a bunch of other functions related to that such as Cost calculations and so on.

    Pretty safe move. (If I ever put an analogue modem back on I can still use BinkleyTerm as well.)

    What needs to be added is of course IPv6 support.

    [Tick]

    Before I go about this giant enterprise, I would welcome any
    thoughts you can come up with.

    Thanks to the FTSC, Radius desperately needs to be updated to disassociate the Txy flags from the ",U," prefix.

    I'm not promising there will be anything but brainstorming here -- with Christmas coming up and all -- but I promise y'all I'll eventually give it my best shot, with your help! If nothing else, I should be able
    to issue a new version of Radius with a new version number... 8-)

    Take your time with it. And, have fun! Radius is ver 4.010; someone (the Russian team?) issued a 'Utilities Package' call ver 4.011.

    I don't know what version Taurus might present. Hopefully Mark Lewis could help with that. Pretty please, Mark?

    Of course, Trapgate is off in its own universe much like Mystic was for nearly a decade. Unngghhh... bite the bullet! I've got to learn to let the old woes die. Oops! 8-)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/1384)
  • From Nicholas Boel@1:154/701 to Björn Felten on Tue Nov 25 20:12:52 2014
    Hello Bj├╢rn,

    On 26 Nov 14 02:45, Bj├╢rn Felten wrote to All:

    I've had some time glancing through the source that Paul sent me, and
    have a lot of ideas about especially what parts I can remove.

    I was thinking primarily about removing everything POTS related.
    And, needless to say a bunch of other functions related to that such
    as Cost calculations and so on.

    What needs to be added is of course IPv6 support.

    Have you asked the Trapgate author if that's on his list of priorities? I see they've changed the interface completely now, and moved to closed source it seems?

    http://sf.net/projects/trapgatemailer

    Before I go about this giant enterprise, I would welcome any
    thoughts you can come up with.

    I'm not promising there will be anything but brainstorming here --
    with Christmas coming up and all -- but I promise y'all I'll
    eventually give it my best shot, with your help! If nothing else, I
    should be able to issue a new version of Radius with a new version number... 8-)

    It would be nice to see it updated, that's for sure. Then again, it would be nice to see any of the old mailers updated to include today's features. :)

    Regards,
    Nick

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130910
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/701)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Nicholas Boel on Wed Nov 26 03:53:38 2014
    Have you asked the Trapgate author

    Well, no. It seems they are eager to bloat the old Argus even more, with e.g.

    "NetWork Monitor in Realtime, transfers will show in KB, MB, GB and Bytes, HTTP
    server, Binp, ZedZap, ZModem, Emsi, Yahoo, Wazoo, Host Lookup, Paypal Dontation, Email bug report,..."

    Binp? Paypal Dontation? Not really trustworthy...

    It would be nice to see it updated, that's for sure. Then again, it
    would be nice to see any of the old mailers updated to include today's features. :)

    Indeed. I have the knowledge (have been working with Borland products from version TP2.0 -- that I still have on a 360kB 5" floppy disk somewhere), so if I can help the fidonet community any more than I did 20+ years ago, I would be proud.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.71 to Björn Felten on Tue Nov 25 21:51:08 2014

    On Wed, 26 Nov 2014, Björn Felten wrote to All:

    I'm not promising there will be anything but brainstorming here
    -- with Christmas coming up and all -- but I promise y'all I'll
    eventually give it my best shot, with your help! If nothing else, I
    should be able to issue a new version of Radius with a new version number... 8-)

    check sourceforge first... there may be new code there already... it is still under maintenence, AFAIK...

    and please consider others when it comes to removing POTS capabilities... some of us still support POTS... especially when it works when the internet is down for some reason...

    with that said, i recall reading somewhere that argus or radius has had the pots stuff removed but my taurus binary still has it...

    Taurus v.5.114.2013.19/Summer/FastMM 4.991/DEBUG

    what would be a really good project would be to convert (one of) them from delphi to freepascal and make it/them multiplatform instead of being restricted
    to only winwhatever... i started with some taurus code a while back but don't know enough about the winwhatever GUI coding mess to be able to convert to generic functions operational on multiple platforms... i know some folks would be glad to see it/them available for linux or even ARM systems... i'd be happy seeing it operational on a console on any OS without any GUI crap at all... then i'd be able to run it on my servers which don't have GUIs at all ;) ;) ;)

    )\/(ark

    If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.

    --- FMail/Win32 1.60
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.71)
  • From Paul Hayton@3:770/100 to Björn Felten on Wed Nov 26 21:40:14 2014
    On 11/26/14, Björn Felten pondered and said...

    Before I go about this giant enterprise, I would welcome any thoughts you can come up with.

    I have to confess I have not used these products but I think it's neat that you're interested and motivated to try and update them. Best wishes.


    `I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid, and I'm not going' - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

    --- Mystic BBS v1.10 A57 (Windows)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | telnet://agency.bbs.geek.nz (3:770/100)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5006.4 to Bj÷rn Felten on Wed Nov 26 15:00:50 2014
    Hello Bj÷rn!

    Wednesday November 26 2014 02:45, you wrote to All:

    I've had some time glancing through the source that Paul sent me, and
    have
    a lot of ideas about especially what parts I can remove.

    I was thinking primarily about removing everything POTS related. And, needless to say a bunch of other functions related to that such as Cost calculations and so on.

    What needs to be added is of course IPv6 support.

    Before I go about this giant enterprise, I would welcome any thoughts you can come up with.

    Put the IPv6 stuff in first it should be far easyer that pulling out all the POTS stuff. Mind you, it is still a job if you are no familear with it.

    I'm not promising there will be anything but brainstorming here --
    with

    Kees

    --- FPD v2.9.040207 GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20130910
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5006.4)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.71 to Paul Quinn on Wed Nov 26 09:27:21 2014

    On Wed, 26 Nov 2014, Paul Quinn wrote to Björn Felten:

    Thanks to the FTSC, Radius desperately needs to be updated to
    disassociate the Txy flags from the ",U," prefix.

    that change by the FTSC was correcting a clerical error... the problem that change lead to in radius comes from too strict coding that's not really necessary...

    eg: frontdoor didn't have a problem with the change because flags are flags and
    it doesn't care about the ,U, separator field denoting user flags...

    the fix in the code is simple... just comment out the line specifically looking
    for the ",U," field ;)

    )\/(ark

    If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.

    --- FMail/Win32 1.60
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.71)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.71 to Paul Quinn on Wed Nov 26 09:31:55 2014

    On Wed, 26 Nov 2014, Paul Quinn wrote to Björn Felten:

    I don't know what version Taurus might present. Hopefully Mark
    Lewis could help with that. Pretty please, Mark?

    i posted the latest one i've found... it was extremely surprising to find such a new version...

    Taurus v.5.114.2013.19/Summer/FastMM 4.991/DEBUG

    just over a year old, it looks like... i need to try to pull an update from SF and see if it has changed there or not... the last time i looked, it appeared that the code hadn't been updated in a while...

    )\/(ark

    If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.

    --- FMail/Win32 1.60
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.71)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Wed Nov 26 16:37:12 2014
    check sourceforge first... there may be new code there already... it is still under maintenence, AFAIK...

    Where do you think I went first? 8-)

    None of the links for Argus or Radius worked. The files seem to be 11 years old. In fact the entire sourceforge.net website seems to be down now...

    "There's instability and frequent 500 errors on the SourceForge site currently. We're working on getting this fixed as soon as we can."

    I'll look for Taurus later, but ATM it seems like the source I got from Paul
    is the latest, so I good for now.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Joe Delahaye@1:249/303 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Nov 26 11:15:42 2014
    Re: The new Radius, RFC
    By: Kees van Eeten to Bj÷rn Felten on Wed Nov 26 2014 15:00:50

    Put the IPv6 stuff in first it should be far easyer that pulling out all the POTS stuff. Mind you, it is still a job if you are no familear with it.


    I'm not promising there will be anything but brainstorming here --

    I use Taurus, but only as a POTS front end. It allows me to transfer POTS calls to a telnet node on the BBS. It was for that reason I switiched to a 32 bit front end.
    --- SBBSecho 2.27-Win32
    * Origin: The Lions Den BBS, Trenton, On, CDN (1:249/303)
  • From Joe Delahaye@1:249/303 to mark lewis on Wed Nov 26 11:17:03 2014
    Re: The new Radius, RFC
    By: mark lewis to Paul Quinn on Wed Nov 26 2014 09:31:55

    Taurus v.5.114.2013.19/Summer/FastMM 4.991/DEBUG

    just over a year old, it looks like... i need to try to pull an update from SF and see if it has changed there or not... the last time i looked, it appeared that the code hadn't been updated in a while...


    I was under the impression that dev elopment had stopped on that?? Have not seen any updates coming in in the Filegate.
    --- SBBSecho 2.27-Win32
    * Origin: The Lions Den BBS, Trenton, On, CDN (1:249/303)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Björn Felten on Wed Nov 26 11:46:14 2014

    On Wed, 26 Nov 2014, Björn Felten wrote to mark lewis:

    check sourceforge first... there may be new code there already...
    it is still under maintenence, AFAIK...

    Where do you think I went first? 8-)

    i didn't have a clue from the info given ;)

    None of the links for Argus or Radius worked. The files seem to
    be 11 years old.

    interesting... i don't know which ones you went to but i generally start off at
    either the taurus page on SF or on bob_bakh's profile page... bob's has links to all three and at least one of argus or radius has the sources to both in it... the taurus stuff is separate...

    In fact the entire sourceforge.net website seems to be down now...

    i can't see what time you wrote your post right now as i'm writing this reply but i didn't have any troubles earlier when i dropped by there to gather some links for someone else...

    "There's instability and frequent 500 errors on the SourceForge
    site currently. We're working on getting this fixed as soon as we
    can."

    i haven't seen that but it has been a few hours... i might just be lucky, though, as i've not had problems when others have reported that they did...

    I'll look for Taurus later, but ATM it seems like the source I
    got from Paul is the latest, so I good for now.

    OK :)

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Wed Nov 26 18:35:50 2014
    I'll look for Taurus later, but ATM it seems like the source I
    got from Paul is the latest, so I good for now.

    OK :)

    Got this far, at least:

    26-Nov-2014 18:21:01 Begin v4.010/26.11.2014,18:11(Final-Release)

    But now I'm off to the dentist. Just when I got started... :(

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Nov 26 22:04:49 2014
    Put the IPv6 stuff in first it should be far easyer that pulling out all the POTS stuff. Mind you, it is still a job if you are no familear with it.

    If only you knew how much of the code is spent on ZModem, Hydra(!), online chat, and dozens of more POTS only functions, you would say that. :)

    But of course, now that I got it to compile OK, the first step is to extend the calls to Winsock to handle IPv6. I might even use ready made object files from the binkd source -- no need to convert the C code to PAS if not needed, even if I've done it many times?

    Oh yes, there's a lot of code in it to make it work with Win95 and 98 too, I
    think I'll lose that too. After all, it *is* originally a relic from last century. A major clean-up is urgently needed, that's for sure.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.71 to Joe Delahaye on Wed Nov 26 15:02:26 2014

    On Wed, 26 Nov 2014, Joe Delahaye wrote to mark lewis:

    Taurus v.5.114.2013.19/Summer/FastMM 4.991/DEBUG

    just over a year old, it looks like... i need to try to pull an
    update from SF and see if it has changed there or not... the last
    time i looked, it appeared that the code hadn't been updated in a while...

    I was under the impression that dev elopment had stopped on that??
    Have not seen any updates coming in in the Filegate.

    i have no idea other than i found some newer versions than what i had in operation... as for distribution, that would be something that FDN host needs to handle... i can't tell you who that is right now, though... it'll be listed in the filegate.zxx file, though... if the FDN still exists, that is...

    )\/(ark

    If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.

    --- FMail/Win32 1.60
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.71)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.71 to Björn Felten on Wed Nov 26 15:05:31 2014

    On Wed, 26 Nov 2014, Björn Felten wrote to mark lewis:

    I'll look for Taurus later, but ATM it seems like the source I
    got from Paul is the latest, so I good for now.

    OK :)

    Got this far, at least:

    26-Nov-2014 18:21:01 Begin v4.010/26.11.2014,18:11(Final-Release)

    wait.. what?? that's today's date but that version is ""old""... oh, uhh... is that radius?? can't be "final-release" either, can it ;)

    But now I'm off to the dentist. Just when I got started... :(

    i hear ya ;)

    )\/(ark

    If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.

    --- FMail/Win32 1.60
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.71)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Wed Nov 26 23:20:47 2014
    wait.. what?? that's today's date but that version is ""old""... oh, uhh... is that radius?? can't be "final-release" either, can it ;)

    Yes indeed, it's Radius. But you don't think they were smart enough to have a single #define somewhere with the version type, number and date, do you? They
    didn't even keep all that info in the About dialogue (that is empty).

    Bugger me if I want to waste time trying to track down all occurrences of VersionNumber for the time being. But it's high on the todo list.

    Now I'm on the C spree. Jeezz, how complicated they do things. I had Radius up and compiled in no time, but even when I install MinGW fresh and use the mingw Makefile the damn binkd doesn't compile.

    I even had to manually create a number of sub-folders for gcc to even start trying to compile, and then it pukes on the very first compiler directive in the makefile, '-mno-cygwin' that obviously doesn't exist.

    Sigh! No wonder people suspect that C originally was a student prank from the Berkeley University. After all, they also gave us unix and LSD... 8-)

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to mark lewis on Thu Nov 27 10:14:38 2014
    Hi! mark,

    On 26/11/2014 9:27 AM, you wrote:

    Thanks to the FTSC, Radius desperately needs to be updated to
    disassociate the Txy flags from the ",U," prefix.

    that change by the FTSC was correcting a clerical error... the problem that change lead to in radius comes from too strict coding that's not really necessary...

    Yes, a clerical correction. Totally unnecessary and thoroughly at odds with the raison d'etre of the FTSC. You will note that they had to dismantle 'current practice' on a number (150?) nodes in order to comply with the clerical fix.

    In so doing, all functionality in Argus-family mailers was broken. I still have a standing question in the FTSC public echo on 'which mailers would be broken, with no change' (IIRC). Which was largely unanswered except for yours,
    explaining FroDo's operation...

    eg: frontdoor didn't have a problem with the change because flags are flags and it doesn't care about the ,U, separator field denoting user flags...

    I asked approximately the same question in the Z2 sysop chatter echo, and was immediately chased out by the Z2C. (Rightly so, since I had no permission to post there.) I did get a netmail reply from one NC, and I challenged him to find *any* software in use which _uses_ the Txy flags per the FTSC change. Nothing. Nada.

    Their 'clerical fix' was for naught, in practice.

    the fix in the code is simple... just comment out the line specifically looking for the ",U," field ;)

    I had a good look with Total Commander for about 10mins and gave up after a negative result. :(

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/1384)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to mark lewis on Thu Nov 27 10:20:50 2014
    Hi! mark,

    On 26/11/2014 9:31 AM, you wrote:

    i posted the latest one i've found... it was extremely surprising to
    find such a new version...

    Taurus v.5.114.2013.19/Summer/FastMM 4.991/DEBUG

    Interesting. It's tickling my interest & curiosity to maybe give it a go...

    just over a year old, it looks like... i need to try to pull an update from SF and see if it has changed there or not... the last time i
    looked, it appeared that the code hadn't been updated in a while...

    Thank you, muchly. I wonder if the important bits have been fixed or whether, like Trapgate, they're just adding on bigger & so-called better capabilities, and, ignoring the basics of why FTN sysops might want to use it, in the first place.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/1384)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Joe Delahaye on Thu Nov 27 10:25:28 2014
    Hi! Joe,

    On 27/11/2014 2:15 AM, you wrote:

    I'm not promising there will be anything but brainstorming here --

    I use Taurus, but only as a POTS front end. It allows me to transfer POTS calls to a telnet node on the BBS. It was for that reason I switiched
    to a 32 bit front end.

    Taurus can do that? POTS to telnet all by itself?

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/1384)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Bj”rn Felten on Thu Nov 27 10:33:50 2014
    Hi! Bj├╢rn,

    On 27/11/2014 8:20 AM, you wrote:

    Sigh! No wonder people suspect that C originally was a student prank from the Berkeley University. After all, they also gave us unix and
    LSD... 8-)

    I saw that email! Though, at the time I thought it was another form of a telex
    message.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/1384)
  • From Joe Delahaye@1:249/303 to mark lewis on Wed Nov 26 20:55:53 2014
    Re: The new Radius, RFC
    By: mark lewis to Joe Delahaye on Wed Nov 26 2014 15:02:26

    i have no idea other than i found some newer versions than what i had in operation... as for distribution, that would be something that FDN host needs to handle... i can't tell you who that is right now, though... it'll be listed in the filegate.zxx file, though... if the FDN still exists, that is...

    Oh well. What I have does the job I want it to do.

    --- SBBSecho 2.27-Win32
    * Origin: The Lions Den BBS, Trenton, On, CDN (1:249/303)
  • From Joe Delahaye@1:249/303 to Paul Quinn on Wed Nov 26 21:47:14 2014
    Re: The new Radius, RFC
    By: Paul Quinn to Joe Delahaye on Thu Nov 27 2014 10:25:28

    Taurus can do that? POTS to telnet all by itself?


    No, of course not. I needed the 32 bit front end to use the program that does do it though. My Intermail would not do that. Its called dialuptotelnet, and its run as a door
    --- SBBSecho 2.27-Win32
    * Origin: The Lions Den BBS, Trenton, On, CDN (1:249/303)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Joe Delahaye on Thu Nov 27 14:48:21 2014
    Hi! Joe,

    On 27/11/2014 12:47 PM, you wrote:

    Taurus can do that? POTS to telnet all by itself?


    No, of course not. I needed the 32 bit front end to use the program
    that does do it though. My Intermail would not do that. Its called dialuptotelnet, and its run as a door

    Ahha. I thought so. There's a copy of that doover here, though unused.

    Thanks, Joe.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/1384)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.71 to Björn Felten on Wed Nov 26 23:45:36 2014

    On Wed, 26 Nov 2014, Björn Felten wrote to mark lewis:

    wait.. what?? that's today's date but that version is ""old""...
    oh, uhh... is that radius?? can't be "final-release" either, can
    it ;)

    Yes indeed, it's Radius. But you don't think they were smart
    enough to have a single #define somewhere with the version type,
    number and date, do you? They didn't even keep all that info in
    the About dialogue (that is empty).

    a define with that info?? WTF? damned amateurs ;)

    Bugger me if I want to waste time trying to track down all
    occurrences of VersionNumber for the time being. But it's high on
    the todo list.

    i hear that...

    Now I'm on the C spree. Jeezz, how complicated they do things.
    I had Radius up and compiled in no time, but even when I install
    MinGW fresh and use the mingw Makefile the damn binkd doesn't
    compile.

    C?? whatever for?? the taurus implementation is all PASCAL if i've been reading
    it properly... geezus... no wonder the shits in the fan :/

    I even had to manually create a number of sub-folders for gcc
    to even start trying to compile, and then it pukes on the very
    first compiler directive in the makefile, '-mno-cygwin' that
    obviously doesn't exist.

    wait, what?? cygwin is not the same thing as mingw... sounds like you're in the
    wrong environment...

    Sigh! No wonder people suspect that C originally was a student
    prank from the Berkeley University. After all, they also gave us
    unix and LSD... 8-)

    AHAHAHA... while that may be true, there has been some really good LSD out there... quite the contrary with *nix shite :phbtbtbtbtbt: O:)

    )\/(ark

    If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.

    --- FMail/Win32 1.60
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.71)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.71 to Paul Quinn on Wed Nov 26 23:52:57 2014

    On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, Paul Quinn wrote to mark lewis:

    the fix in the code is simple... just comment out the line
    specifically looking for the ",U," field ;)

    I had a good look with Total Commander for about 10mins and gave
    up after a negative result. :(

    i loaded taurus' code in Lazarus as a project and told it to search all documents for ",U," or such... found it within seconds, as i recall... that's when i first told you that if the code in argus and radius was the same as in taurus, the fix would be easy... the problem is compiling it since i don't have
    delphi other than the old personal edition...

    besides, it would be a hell of a lot better for the network if these ""tools"" were ported away from winwhatever and made multiplatform... that's easier done with FPC and lazarus than delphi which is just barely getting away from whineshite ;)

    )\/(ark

    If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.

    --- FMail/Win32 1.60
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.71)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Thu Nov 27 08:52:52 2014
    the fix would be easy...

    Should be fixed now (in Radius)... 8-)

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to mark lewis on Thu Nov 27 19:05:19 2014
    Hi! mark,

    On 26/11/2014 11:52 PM, you wrote:

    i loaded taurus' code in Lazarus as a project and told it to search all documents for ",U," or such... found it within seconds, as i recall... that's when i first told you that if the code in argus and radius was
    the same as in taurus, the fix would be easy... the problem is compiling it since i don't have delphi other than the old personal edition...

    Ah, it might have been easier to spot in such an environment. Just searching 'likely' files (still) in the Radius archive with TC didn't turn up a positive.
    Mind you, I only allocated 10 mins to the job.

    besides, it would be a hell of a lot better for the network if these ""tools"" were ported away from winwhatever and made multiplatform... that's easier done with FPC and lazarus than delphi which is just barely getting away from whineshite ;)

    Yep. I think the 'tool' deserves a future, in any OS. Unless certain other packages improve their game (e.g. your stated future features about binkD). Mmm...

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/1384)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Bj”rn Felten on Thu Nov 27 19:18:41 2014
    Hi! Bj├╢rn,

    On 27/11/2014 5:52 PM, you wrote:

    the fix would be easy...

    Should be fixed now (in Radius)... 8-)

    Sweet! :) I have a (currently) unused Win98SE VirtualBox that I could try it out on... after the weekend... I have a minor project to get done before or on the weekend. Could you send me a copy, please?

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/1384)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Paul Quinn on Thu Nov 27 10:57:09 2014
    Could you send me a copy, please?

    Nah. IPv6 first.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Björn Felten on Thu Nov 27 20:33:14 2014
    Hi! Bj├╢rn,

    On 27/11/2014 7:57 PM, you wrote:

    Could you send me a copy, please?

    Nah. IPv6 first.

    Okay. A late scratching from the christmas card list. Done!

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/1384)
  • From Joe Delahaye@1:249/303 to Paul Quinn on Thu Nov 27 10:02:48 2014
    Re: The new Radius, RFC
    By: Paul Quinn to Joe Delahaye on Thu Nov 27 2014 14:48:21

    No, of course not. I needed the 32 bit front end to use the program
    that does do it though. My Intermail would not do that. Its called
    dialuptotelnet, and its run as a door

    Ahha. I thought so. There's a copy of that doover here, though unused.


    Its kind of neat. Synchronet now has its own POTS frontend, but I never bothered to change over. Biggest problem I have with Taurus is, that it sometimes tends to phone a node to deliver the mail, Not sure if there is a switch to turn that off, or if I did and it is not working right. If it is a POTS only node, then no problem, but no need if there is a IP capable node.
    --- SBBSecho 2.27-Win32
    * Origin: The Lions Den BBS, Trenton, On, CDN (1:249/303)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Joe Delahaye on Thu Nov 27 16:42:01 2014
    it sometimes tends to phone a node to deliver the mail

    That never happened when I used Argus, but started happening with Radius, with exactly the same settings, so it's obviously a bug in the newer family members. A bug that can add significantly to your phone bill if there's no answer and you pay per call (as I do).

    Added to the todo list...

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Björn Felten on Thu Nov 27 11:44:05 2014

    On Wed, 26 Nov 2014, Björn Felten wrote to Kees van Eeten:

    Put the IPv6 stuff in first it should be far easyer that
    pulling out all the POTS stuff. Mind you, it is still a job if
    you are no familear with it.

    If only you knew how much of the code is spent on ZModem,
    Hydra(!), online chat, and dozens of more POTS only functions, you
    would say that. :)

    why do you think those are POTS only functions? i've seen them used and have used them myself on TCP/IP connections... argus, radius and taurus have had no problems connecting and exchanging mail with my frontdoor nodes over telnet... i don't understand the problem here...

    But of course, now that I got it to compile OK, the first step
    is to extend the calls to Winsock to handle IPv6. I might even use
    ready made object files from the binkd source -- no need to convert
    the C code to PAS if not needed, even if I've done it many times?

    while i understand, my first reaction is to gag... perhaps i should look at the
    taurus code mode closely and see if i missed something in its binkp implementation... i'm pretty sure it is all pascal code but it had been a while
    since i went digging and rooting about it in ;)

    Oh yes, there's a lot of code in it to make it work with Win95
    and 98 too, I think I'll lose that too. After all, it *is*
    originally a relic from last century. A major clean-up is urgently needed, that's for sure.

    i guess that means that folks running older systems for nostalgic reasons (in VMs most likely) won't be able to use your new version? have you been in contact with the maintainer(s) to see what they think? he is, AFAIK, still active ;)

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Joe Delahaye on Thu Nov 27 11:53:32 2014

    On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, Joe Delahaye wrote to Paul Quinn:

    Biggest problem I have with Taurus is, that it sometimes tends to
    phone a node to deliver the mail, Not sure if there is a switch to
    turn that off, or if I did and it is not working right. If it is
    a POTS only node, then no problem, but no need if there is a IP
    capable node.

    you can use the override grid to change the phone number to "-Unpublished-" while listing the internet protocol you desire to use with that system...

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Thu Nov 27 18:08:05 2014
    won't be able to use your new version?

    I would, that's what's important to me. For people with other preferences than me, the other three family members still are out there.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Thu Nov 27 18:14:30 2014
    you can use the override grid to change the phone number to "-Unpublished-" while listing the internet protocol you desire to use
    with that system...

    Or you can put V22 as the only flag Required in the Dialing (sic) Restrictions. Not many 1200 baud modems left in fidonet nowadays... :)



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Björn Felten on Thu Nov 27 13:10:31 2014

    On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, Björn Felten wrote to mark lewis:

    won't be able to use your new version?

    I would, that's what's important to me. For people with other preferences than me, the other three family members still are out
    there.

    why did you chop the context so badly? my comment was specifically about others
    running win9x and the other one mentioned and wanting to use your bug fixed version of the mailer thing :sigh:

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Björn Felten on Thu Nov 27 13:14:29 2014

    On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, Björn Felten wrote to mark lewis:

    you can use the override grid to change the phone number to "-Unpublished-" while listing the internet protocol you desire to
    use with that system...

    Or you can put V22 as the only flag Required in the Dialing
    (sic) Restrictions. Not many 1200 baud modems left in fidonet
    nowadays... :)

    i've never had a need to use any of the restrictions stuffs... i've always used
    the overrides ;)

    i'm sure that others will find the information helpful... i may even give it a try at some point O:)

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From Ross Cassell@1:123/456 to mark lewis on Thu Nov 27 15:23:39 2014
    Hello mark!

    27 Nov 14 13:10, you wrote to Björn Felten:

    why did you chop the context so badly? my comment was specifically
    about others running win9x and the other one mentioned and wanting to
    use your bug fixed version of the mailer thing :sigh:

    Because that is what he does when he doesnt like what one said.

    ==
    Ross
    Fidonet Feeds Or Fidonet In Your Newsreader: http://www.easternstar.info

    "Know what you believe and why you believe it" - Russ Cassell 1954-2014

    "Lee, leave those kids alone" - Pink Floyd

    ... The avalanche has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote! --- GoldED/W32 3.0.1
    * Origin: The Eastern Star - Spartanburg, SC USA (1:123/456)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Ross Cassell on Thu Nov 27 23:10:31 2014
    Because that is what he does when he doesnt like what one said.

    This is the Argus echo. I've asked for RFC about what needs to be done to the family. Your contribution wasn't especially constructive (or even on topic), was it?

    So far I've fixed the Txy bug, and have added support for an 'exitnow.ok' semaphore file that'll execute 'exitnow.bat' -- while I'm busy trying to change
    the existing winsock file to one that can handle IPv6.

    You have anything to add?

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to mark lewis on Fri Nov 28 08:58:27 2014
    Hi! mark,

    On 27/11/2014 1:14 PM, you wrote:

    Or you can put V22 as the only flag Required in the Dialing
    (sic) Restrictions. Not many 1200 baud modems left in fidonet
    nowadays... :)

    i've never had a need to use any of the restrictions stuffs... i've
    always used the overrides ;)

    I use a combination of restrictions, both required & forbidden for both dial-up
    & IP. An override covers a single destination. Restrictions are 'class actions', covering many destinations. I guess you knew this already. Oops...

    i'm sure that others will find the information helpful... i may even
    give it a try at some point O:)

    I thought it particularly devious and scored it a 10 from 10 for inventiveness.
    I liked it. :)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/1384)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Paul Quinn on Fri Nov 28 00:32:42 2014
    I thought it particularly devious and scored it a 10 from 10 for inventiveness. I liked it. :)

    Oh, WOW, kinda. You mean I actually managed to pay you back for all the valuable tricks and treats that you have supplied us with in this echo for all those years?

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Bj”rn Felten on Fri Nov 28 11:13:42 2014
    Hi! Bj├╢rn,

    On 28/11/2014 9:32 AM, you wrote:

    I thought it particularly devious and scored it a 10 from 10 for
    inventiveness. I liked it. :)

    Oh, WOW, kinda. You mean I actually managed to pay you back for all the valuable tricks and treats that you have supplied us with in this
    echo for all those years?

    Absolutely. It was refreshingly simple. Far better than anything I could come
    up with. If I can ever put an analogue modem back on-line again, I'll certainly revisit my own restrictions' logic and most likely incorporate yours.

    There are no COM ports on my vBox's host. My long term plan is to try an old internal 14.4k, for which there's still a config in Radius. These days however I just don't have a hankering for pulling hardware apart; I like 'em to just keep working without intervention.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/1384)
  • From Joe Delahaye@1:249/303 to Björn Felten on Thu Nov 27 21:27:19 2014
    Re: The new Radius, RFC
    By: Björn Felten to Joe Delahaye on Thu Nov 27 2014 16:42:01

    That never happened when I used Argus, but started happening with
    Radius, with exactly the same settings, so it's obviously a bug in the newer family members. A bug that can add significantly to your phone bill if there's no answer and you pay per call (as I do).

    Added to the todo list...

    Hurts when it tries international calls as well <G>
    --- SBBSecho 2.27-Win32
    * Origin: The Lions Den BBS, Trenton, On, CDN (1:249/303)
  • From Joe Delahaye@1:249/303 to mark lewis on Thu Nov 27 21:29:26 2014
    Re: The new Radius, RFC
    By: mark lewis to Joe Delahaye on Thu Nov 27 2014 11:53:32

    you can use the override grid to change the phone number to "-Unpublished-" while listing the internet protocol you desire to use with that system...


    Yeah, but I have only one node listed with a phone number. It uses the nodelist to call, as far as I can tell. I have IP or binkd stuff turned off. --- SBBSecho 2.27-Win32
    * Origin: The Lions Den BBS, Trenton, On, CDN (1:249/303)
  • From Ross Cassell@1:123/456 to Björn Felten on Thu Nov 27 21:29:31 2014
    Hello Björn!

    27 Nov 14 23:10, you wrote to me:

    Because that is what he does when he doesnt like what one said.

    You have anything to add?

    FYI I am the moderator and have been since David Moufarrege handed it over, but
    my contribution to what you said is spot on, you do chop up the quoting on others messages in order to destroy context, please dont do that.



    ==
    Ross
    Fidonet Feeds Or Fidonet In Your Newsreader: http://www.easternstar.info

    "Know what you believe and why you believe it" - Russ Cassell 1954-2014

    "Lee, leave those kids alone" - Pink Floyd

    ... The avalanche has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote! --- GoldED/W32 3.0.1
    * Origin: The Eastern Star - Spartanburg, SC USA (1:123/456)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Joe Delahaye on Fri Nov 28 05:31:54 2014

    On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, Joe Delahaye wrote to mark lewis:

    you can use the override grid to change the phone number to "-Unpublished-" while listing the internet protocol you desire to
    use with that system...

    Yeah, but I have only one node listed with a phone number. It uses
    the nodelist to call, as far as I can tell. I have IP or binkd
    stuff turned off.

    i'm not understanding your complaint then... if you are only using the mailer for POTS, what's the problem with it making the call to deliver the mail? if you don't want it making any phone calls and you have the IP stuff turned off, why are you even running the mailer? it is useless and wasting resources...

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From Joe Delahaye@1:249/303 to mark lewis on Fri Nov 28 08:51:54 2014
    Re: The new Radius, RFC
    By: mark lewis to Joe Delahaye on Fri Nov 28 2014 05:31:54

    i'm not understanding your complaint then... if you are only using the mailer for POTS, what's the problem with it making the call to deliver the mail? if you don't want it making any phone calls and you have the IP stuff turned off, why are you even running the mailer? it is useless and wasting resources...


    It is there simply for Incoming calls. and sometimes for POTS only nodes. I get POTS calls to the BBS, and I used to get POTS calls at times from people whose mail was on hold, to pick up their mail. If that phone line goes, then Taurus also goes.
    --- SBBSecho 2.27-Win32
    * Origin: The Lions Den BBS, Trenton, On, CDN (1:249/303)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Joe Delahaye on Fri Nov 28 18:22:53 2014

    On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, Joe Delahaye wrote to mark lewis:

    i'm not understanding your complaint then... if you are only using
    the mailer for POTS, what's the problem with it making the call to deliver the mail? if you don't want it making any phone calls and
    you have the IP stuff turned off, why are you even running the
    mailer? it is useless and wasting resources...

    It is there simply for Incoming calls. and sometimes for POTS only
    nodes.

    THAT i can understand :) it wasn't referenced in your original post which is one of the reasons why i was confused...

    I get POTS calls to the BBS, and I used to get POTS calls at times
    from people whose mail was on hold, to pick up their mail.

    i've done similar and it is one of the reasons why i still have my POTS line out here... i won't get rid of it until forced to by the telco... copper lines work even when the internet is down... yes, if the lines are broken, then neither works but still, i'd rather have copper lines for emergency purposes when most other things are down...

    [rhetorical] how can one called their ISP about an outtage when their phone is VoIP?? ;) [/rhetorical]

    If that phone line goes, then Taurus also goes.

    so no experimenting with VoIP for POTS callers of either type? ;)

    )\/(ark


    * Origin: (1:3634/12)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Sat Nov 29 06:10:43 2014
    [rhetorical] how can one called their ISP about an outtage when their phone is VoIP?? ;) [/rhetorical]

    It's really amazing how long time it can take to compile the above properly.
    Just a single, misplaced 'd' and it all turns out completely different.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.71 to Björn Felten on Sat Nov 29 01:52:18 2014

    On Sat, 29 Nov 2014, Björn Felten wrote to mark lewis:

    [rhetorical] how can one called their ISP about an outtage when their phone is VoIP?? ;) [/rhetorical]

    It's really amazing how long time it can take to compile the
    above properly. Just a single, misplaced 'd' and it all turns out completely different.

    even with a misplaced (shouldn't be there) "ed" ;) damned fingers have a mind of their own at times... i can only guess that they were drinking without me ;)

    )\/(ark

    If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.

    --- FMail/Win32 1.60
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.71)
  • From Joe Delahaye@1:249/303 to mark lewis on Sat Nov 29 10:54:09 2014
    Re: The new Radius, RFC
    By: mark lewis to Joe Delahaye on Fri Nov 28 2014 18:22:53

    It is there simply for Incoming calls. and sometimes for POTS only
    nodes.

    THAT i can understand :) it wasn't referenced in your original post which is one of the reasons why i was confused...

    [rhetorical] how can one called their ISP about an outtage when their phone is VoIP?? ;) [/rhetorical]

    If that phone line goes, then Taurus also goes.

    so no experimenting with VoIP for POTS callers of either type? ;)


    I have two lines. One for personal use. I have a cell phone but when at home, for phone calls I use the land line. I had called Bell at one time to disconnect the second line, due to costs. They decided I could have it for free. I noticed though they are still charging the extra fees like 911, touchtone, etc. but no basic phone fees.
    --- SBBSecho 2.27-Win32
    * Origin: The Lions Den BBS, Trenton, On, CDN (1:249/303)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Paul Quinn on Fri Nov 28 09:16:00 2014
    Paul Quinn wrote to mark lewis <=-

    I use a combination of restrictions, both required & forbidden for both dial-up & IP. An override covers a single destination. Restrictions
    are 'class actions', covering many destinations. I guess you knew this already. Oops...

    I'd like to throw a question out there -- I'm using Radius, used Argus for
    some time. I'd always wanted to be able to use the nodelist directly, but
    in able to get polling to work had to load in the ARGUS.TXT overrides, then
    in the TCP/IP restrictions field entered BND as a required field.

    I'd like to be able to have Radius dial from the nodelist, but it seems
    that it can't parse the combinations of flags to define BINK connectivity.

    Is there a better way of getting Radius to connect via BINK than using the override file?





    ... It is quite possible (after all)
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Kurt Weiske on Sun Nov 30 09:13:46 2014
    Hi! Kurt,

    On 29/11/2014 3:16 AM, you wrote:

    I'd like to throw a question out there -- I'm using Radius, used Argus for some time. I'd always wanted to be able to use the nodelist directly, but in able to get polling to work had to load in the ARGUS.TXT overrides,
    then
    in the TCP/IP restrictions field entered BND as a required field.

    That's weird. I checked the nodelist and in our Z3 version there's only two fellers using a ",BND," listing: one in Kentucky & one in Chile (used in multiple entries). I do have an old ARGUS.TXT from March of this year, and I can see that all the entries require ",BND," nodes... fascinating... in a Star Trek 'Scottie meets keyboard' thing.

    I'd like to be able to have Radius dial from the nodelist, but it seems that it can't parse the combinations of flags to define BINK connectivity.

    Dial? You meant to call on IP... right? Well I can't say that what I have done is better than any other bloke's way. (Certainly since seeing some inconsistencies with Radius's behaviour reported in this echo over the years, and since seeing Bj├╢rn's remarks on the state of the source code for Radius and then Argus.) I have both the BND & BNP flags as well as IBN in the required restrictions. I don't know how the older ones got in that table.

    (I even tried ICM but that didn't work. Radius is still fixated on CM nodes only... or ",U,Txy" nodes [which is 'cactus' now].)

    Is there a better way of getting Radius to connect via BINK than using the override file?

    Mmm... I don't use any override /file/ but I do have several overrides in the 'Nodes' grid, or as seen from the Config-->'Node Inspector'. Most of those are for passworded links or private (Pvt,...) nodes. On the down side, I do know that a couple are for links that, for who knows what reason, just will not parse properly from the nodelist in Radius.

    On the plus side I will tell you that there only 18 overrides in the Nodes grid. Generally, Radius also handles INA-flagged nodelist entries; something that Argus doesn't know about IIRC. Quite often one-off netmails just get transferred during sessions 'slicker than snot'.

    I need breakfast... so too, the animals...

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/1384)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Paul Quinn on Sun Nov 30 00:49:33 2014
    INA-flagged nodelist entries; something that Argus doesn't know about IIRC

    If true (don't think I've checked it) that's definitely a VIP candidate for the todo-list.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)